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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY HANSARD 17 DECEMBER 2024 VOL 51 NO 20

PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE

Tuesday, 17^th December 2024

The National Assembly met at a Quarter-past Two o’clock p. m.

PRAYERS

(THE HON. SPEAKER in the Chair)

The Minister of Finance, Economic Development and Investment Promotion having approached the Chair.

THE HON. SPEAKER:  I am sure you will forgive me. I had to do some bit of consultations. Alright! Thank you.

HON. HWENDE:  On a point of order Mr. Speaker Sir. Welcome back.

THE HON. SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.

HON. HWENDE:  I just want to register concern as a Member of Parliament regarding the absence of Ministers and Deputy Ministers when we started the Budget debate. When we adjourned last week to this day, we had expected that there would be an improvement in the presence of Ministers so that they can listen to the MPs as they argue for their budgets and also argue for the citizens. You can see that we have less than six Ministers and Deputy Ministers in attendance. Thank you.

THE HON. SPEAKER:  I think the majority of the Ministers should be finishing Cabinet now, am I right? They should come in and also some of them may not have direct responsibility for a particular Vote. That is the reason. Thank you.

HON. SHAMU: Allow me to extend my heartfelt congratulations on the prestigious accolades you received during the recently concluded 56^th Plenary Assembly Session of the SADC Parliamentary Forum (SADC PF). This remarkable event graciously hosted by the National Assembly of Zambia from 8^th to 15^th December 2024, carried the inspiring theme, “Leveraging Technology and Innovation for Smart, Inclusive and Responsive Parliaments in the SDC Region.”

Mr. Speaker Sir, you were most deservedly honoured with the Grand Defender of Democracy Award cited as “For the unflinching dedicated service, unwavering commitment to duty and iconic visionary leadership as an inspiring Member of the Executive Committee of the SADC Parliamentary Forum for the period November 2022 to December 2024.” This award celebrates your outstanding contributions as an inspiring Member of the Executive Committee of the SADC Parliamentary Forum from November 2022 to December 2024.

Your leadership within the SADC PF is a beacon of excellence exemplified by the significant roles you hold:

1. As a member of the Executive Committee of SADC PF, you

continue to shape the Forum’s strategic direction and governance.

2. As Chairman of the Strategic Lobbying Team for the

Transformation of SADC PF into a Regional Parliament, your efforts are pivotal in advancing this historic initiative.

3. As a member of the Resource Mobilisation Committee, you

shall be instrumental in instituting robust and proactive measures to secure sustainable resources for the Forum’s operations and programmes, ensuring its effectiveness in promoting regional integration and inter-parliamentary cooperation.

Your contributions in advancing Multitrack Parliamentary Diplomacy, sustainable regional development and global multilateralism are truly commendable. These accolades are a reflection of your exemplary leadership and unwavering dedication to the ideals of democracy and regional integration. 

As we celebrate these achievements, may they serve as inspiration for continued success in your noble service to our region and beyond.

Once again, congratulations on this well-deserved recognition. Mr. Speaker Sir. - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -

THE HON. SPEAKER: Thank you very much Hon. Shamu. The award is for Zimbabwe. Each one of us who performs in committees or in the leadership outside Zimbabwe does so on behalf of Zimbabwe. I am most grateful for the statement and will try to fly the Zimbabwe flag accordingly - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] - Flying Zimbabwe flag is inclusive.  I see some of my friends in the left there were taping slowly unconvinced. The Zimbabwe flag, even if there is a change of Government, would not change. Those that will assume power through some luck will still fly the Zimbabwe flag and when we go out there, we go as one. Hon. Hwende is that not, correct?

HON. HWENDE: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

THE HON. SPEAKER: So, you were hesitating in your clapping.   

HON. DR. KHUPE: Point of Order.

THE HON. SPEAKER: What is your point of order?

HON. DR. KHUPE: Hon. Speaker Sir, I would also like to add my voice in congratulating you for the award. Well done and keep it up. Thank you.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

MAIN ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE

         First Order read: Committee of Supply: Main Estimates of Expenditure.

         House in Committee.

         Vote 15 - Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education - ZiG 46, 764, 004, 000:                                           

          HON. DR. KHUPE: Thank you very much Hon. Chairperson. The issue that I would like to raise has to do with sanitary wear which was allocated 85 million and the Minister added another 126 million which is a very positive thing but Hon. Chairperson and Hon. Minister, the money required so that all the 550 000 girls get sanitary wear every month is 396 million. So, if you add 126 million, you get 211 million and we will have a shortfall of 185 million. Hon. Minister, menstruation is not something which we can stop, it is nature.  You cannot say these girls must stop menstruating this month because we do not have sanitary wear.  So it is important that you allocate the full amount so that girls do not miss school.   We have always said that girls miss school an average of 5 days every month and one month every term.  They are failing to catch up with their school work thereby perpetuating inequalities.  It would be good if you were to put another 185 million so that you know that with sanitary wear, it is covered for a whole year.  Initially, the money that was allocated was only for 3 months and then you added another 126 and I think it was going to last for another 8 months.  It is important that you add another 185 million so that you know that come 2025, no one is going to raise the issue of period poverty.  Girls are going to be attending school 24/7 and you will not have any problems with sanitary wear. 

The second issue is to do with brain drain, a lot of qualified and skilled manpower are leaving the country because of poor remuneration.  If only teachers could be remunerated well so that they do not leave the country.  I thank you.

*HON. MATARA: Thank you Hon. Chair. I would like to thank the Hon. Minister for the money allocated to the Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education. Looking at the breakdown of the money, the money that was allocated to infant and junior school, last year it was at 38% of the budget but this year it was reduced to 34%.  This means the challenges that have been there at the infant schools will remain or increase. The expectation was that the budget will be increased and that was going to assist very much in things like infrastructure, learning materials and many other items needed for constructing the foundation. That is the actual foundation of education and learning.

I wanted the Hon. Minister to consider that so that the foundation of infant education is rectified.  I thank you.

*HON. MAKUMIRE: Thank you Hon. Chair for giving me this opportunity to debate on this Vote. I want to talk about the infrastructure of primary and secondary schools.  Madam Chair, if you check carefully your will realise that some of the structures out there in the rural areas were constructed during the liberation struggle so much that some of the walls are about to fall on their own.  Looking at the money allocated that 532 million, I do not think it will assist in the construction of the infrastructure.  In addition, I would like to emphasise that in the rural areas, learners travel long distances to get to school hence there is need to build more schools to reduce the distances.

I think it will be important that our budget must be pointing to that.  I wish this money could be increased to a billion. I want to emphasise that in rural areas most schools do not have critical infrastructure like laboratories and ICT equipment that is needed for science education.  Most of the rural children are only learning the Shona, Bible and English. Rural schools must teach science subjects to ensure that we come out with doctors, engineers as well as other professionals to do with science, so I wish this money could be increased to a billion. I thank you.

*HON. MASHONGANYIKA: Thank you Hon. Chair. I also would like to debate on Primary and Secondary Vote.  I wish the Hon. Minister should increase the money allocated to primary and secondary education.  At the primary level that is where we have a lot of children that need special classes, the very slow learners that need to catch up with others.  We really realised that they are mixed up in teaching, they are taught in the same class with other normal learners.  Schools must have a special block for special learners and their teachers so that they catch up quickly.  With regards to children with disabilities, schools do not have user friendly facilities such as ablution facilities because all children have the right to get access to education.  People with disabilities cannot access ablution facilities easily especially at primary schools, we expect high technology because that is where we expect them to catch up with technology and others. 

These are the things that we expect to be considered in primary and secondary schools. There is no security in schools, when they install solar panels and systems, there are easily stolen because there is no security.  There are no fences, schools should be protected and the school property will be protected if there is security, be it solar, we expect that in the rural areas where there is no electricity, we expect that you carefully consider all the money that is being allocated there for electrification of these schools and consider whether that money is enough.  I also concur with the previous speaker that this Vote be increased to 1 billion.

HON. TOGAREPI: Thank you Hon. Chair.  I have a request, if you pocket allows, I think you can draw a little bit from the back pocket and increase the allocation to Primary and Secondary Education.  Why do I say that?  I think we need to take a deliberate effort to support rural schools and rural teachers.  Teachers in the rural areas need good accommodation for them to be able to execute their duties well.  Also, they need rural allowance.  They miss a lot of services that are gotten by those who are in urban areas.  So Hon. Minister, as you take the request by Hon. Members to increase this allocation, consider giving a rural allowance a serious figure to attract good teachers to go to rural areas and serve our people.

Maybe I can reference Hon. Makumire where he said we want doctors who will come from rural areas. It is only when the foundation is good when we have good teachers to support this aspiration, we will see more students passing in important subjects that can create doctors, engineers and pilots for us from rural areas. So Minister, from your back pocket, I really pray and I am not talking about a billion because I am not sure how deep your pocket is but anything that you may want to add. Let us support our rural teachers and improve the infrastructure in our rural schools so that many teachers would want to go and give service in the rural areas. I thank you.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (HON. TSITSI ZHOU): Hon. Members, we are debating towards the Vote, hence we should not have a general debate. Please stick to the debate of the Vote.

*HON. KANGAUSARU: I support that the Minister should increase money allocated to the education sector. If you think education is expensive try ignorance. In order for us to create a good foundation for the future of our children, they must be given good education so that there is no difference between the education received in the rural areas, especially where I come from in Hurungwe East at Kangurunguru Primary School where 80% of such people stay in the rural areas. The children learn under dusty conditions with no computers and they do not even know what electricity is. That is my request that our rural schools can be electrified even with solar energy system so that they may be able to plug in computers, gargets and get access to electricity to charge their phones and be able to communicate with others because we are saying no place and no one should be left behind.

Firstly, rural learners do not have books. Most of the teachers run away because the conditions will be bad. My prayer is, let us increase this money to at least a billion because education is the foundation of the lives of our children, like what some people say.  If you try to clean your teeth when they are already rotten, it is too late and it becomes more expensive. So let us make a good foundation for our children so that by the time they get to secondary level, they would have grasped the foundation phase because some of the things like mathematics are better grasped at foundation level. When you miss that at foundation level, it becomes difficult to catch up. Let us try to inject more money for that and may the Hon. Minister considers the rural learners so that they get access to electricity, books and the girl-child gets access to pads, even reusable pads, so that our people at least get better lives through education.

^#HON. S. NDEBELE: My request is; may the Hon. Minister consider creating a fund to cater for disasters that may face schools because you realise that most of the schools, when blown away by winds, there will not be any mitigatory measures. If the Hon. Minister could set aside that money.

*HON. JERE: This issue on the education sector needs us to consider deeply especially considering the mantra of the President that there should be no place and no one left behind. I would like to talk in the context of what is happening on the ground from where I come from. We have about six wards and in Mushaninga, there is not even a single secondary school and this is where Hon. Biti comes from. After primary education, children go to Chemhondoro for secondary education, which means the parents have to look for temporary accommodation for their children. The girl-child ends up not completing secondary education and ventures also into drugs.

The infrastructure of education is leaving out a lot of children behind. I know Hon. Minister, you are trying hard using local resources but let us find a way. May these children be given a secondary school that covers that area. I know that there are many other areas where we have the same situation. We are looking at 30 km to get to the nearest secondary school. That is my request, may you please look into that. Some Hon. Members talked about one billion meant to improve the infrastructure so that children do not have to travel long distances.

HON. PINDUKA: I would like to submit my suggestions to the Hon. Minister of Finance, Economic Development and Investment Promotion on two areas under the Vote for Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education. The first one is continuous teacher training and development is also very important in terms of when we link teacher training and development with pass rate. I would like to propose that the Hon. Minister considers adding additional resources to teacher training and development so that at the end of the day, of course there are many factors that affect pass rate but teacher training and development especially in the modern-day world where things are changing so fast is of essence. So we need to focus also on that.

Secondly, I request the Hon. Minister to also consider the issues to do with climate change. You will see that most schools in rural areas are hard hit by the negative effect of climate change as a result of cyclones. Right now, we are also expecting Cyclone Chido and we witnessed devastating effects of Cyclone Idai last time and schools are the hardest hit by these cyclones.  In terms of disaster risk management, I propose that the Hon. Minister could also consider some budgetary provisions to make sure that schools get an allocation, that is a fund that targets rehabilitation of those schools that would have been affected by these negative effects of climate change and even construction of new schools in those areas that have been affected greatly by climate change.

         Lastly, on capital expenditure, we still have quite a number of schools in rural areas where we are witnessing learners travelling long distances, like what has been referred to by Hon. Jere.  I so submit Madam Chair. 

         ^*HON. MUROMBEDZI: Thank you Madam Chair.  My contribution is with regards to the Primary and Secondary Education vote.

Considering the school feeding programme, may the Hon. Minister increase that allocation, especially for the benefit of the rural areas?  The children from the rural areas benefit a lot from the feeding programme. If there is hunger in their homes, they get food from school and are able to concentrate during lessons. 

This will also help our girl children to stay in school. We are looking at fighting child marriages which are exacerbated by hunger.  If they get food at school, they will be motivated to stay in school. Looking at ZiG 1.3 million allocated, it is not enough, I urge the Hon. Minister to increase the allocation to ZiG 4 million or ZiG 5 million, that would be a good start.  I thank you.

^*HON. CHITIMBE: Thank you Madam Speaker Ma’am.  May the Hon. Minister resort to his reserve so that the BEAM issues may be rectified?  Some parents are no longer paying school fees because they say even Government owes schools, so nothing can stop them from owing too. 

There are schools that were constructed by farm owners but after the land reform, no attention is being paid to them for renovations so much that the kids are learning under trees. May the Hon. Minister look at that? I thank you.

HON. TSVANGIRAI: Thank you Chairperson.  I also rise to emphasise the urgent need for an increased budget allocation to the Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education. 

The escalating teacher to people ratio in our schools is a matter of great concern and requires immediate intervention.  As the population grows, classrooms are becoming increasingly overcrowded. Teachers are stretched beyond capacity.  In many schools, a single teacher is responsible for teaching over a hundred pupils or more.  This compromises the quality of education as teachers are unable to give adequate attention to individual learners. 

It also places immense stress to our educators, leading to burn-out and decreased morale.  I therefore urge the Hon. Minister of Finance, Economic Development and Investment Promotion to increase the budget allocation to this critical ministry.  I thank you.

         ^*HON. KUKA:  Thank you Madam Chair Ma’am.  I would like to add on to the debate.  I think the Ministry of Education is very important to all of us in the country.  If you look carefully, it points out to the fact that, that is where we all came from. That is how we are able to understand as we debate like this.  We know where we are coming from and where we are going because of education.

I want to consider the issue of infrastructure. Yes, indeed, it has been referred to but there is infrastructure that is outdated.  The population of children in schools has increased and yet the ablution facilities, which were used when the school was built does not match with the current number of pupils meaning to say the schools are over populated.

         The other issue is of administration blocks because when learners increase, staff also increases, which means the administration blocks become user unfriendly. May the funds meant to construct infrastructure be increased to address that?

         Madam Speaker Ma’am, I wish through you, that may the Hon. Minister increase budget allocated to the education sector?  I thank you.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  Thank you Madam Chair.  I thank the Hon. Members for their contributions. If we look at our Vote for the Secondary and Primary Education, we met the Dakar target of 20% of our revenues or budget being targeted at Primary and Secondary Education. 

If you also add, Higher Education was 25%. I am very pleased that we are able to meet more than the Dakar target. What we have seen as a ministry responsible for resource mobilisation management is an improved absorptive capacity from the Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education. It also means that some of the measures we put together jointly with the ministry to support this budget implementation are going to bear fruit.

         However, while we have Dakar target Madam Chair, I have been convinced by the debates and inputs from various Honourable Members, for instance, the issue of having to increase the budget for sanitary wear, making sure the junior education aspect is adequately resourced or there are more resources going towards it.  Also improving or increasing the amount that is targeted to rural schools so they are not left behind. 

Among other contributions, Honourable Members touched on a lot of areas that impact on our sector.  To this end, I propose that we increase the budget for this Ministry by ZiG250 million.  I thank you.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you Hon. Minister.

         Vote 15 put and agreed to.

         Vote 16 - Ministry of Higher and Tertiary Education, Innovation, Science and Technology Development - ZiG 10, 523,772:

         HON. HWENDE: Point of order Madam Chair.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  What is your point of order Honourable?

         HON. HWENDE: My point of order is that we request that we stick to our agreement of returning to Vote 2. On Thursday we agreed that we would give the Hon. Minister an opportunity to consult and he has indeed consulted. I am proposing that we revert to Vote 2 so that we dispose of it and then we continue.  Thank you.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Hon. Hwende.  We are going to certainly revert to Vote 2 but as of now, we proceed to Vote 16.

         HON. HWENDE:  It was a resolution of this House that we will allow the Minister to consult his officers.  He has consulted and we want him to brief us.  So, you have to stick to the resolution of the Committee because that is what we resolved as a Committee.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Well noted Hon. Hwende.  We will certainly revert to that order – [HON. HWENDE:  We, were supposed to start with that in terms of that agreement.] – I have thanked you for that.

         HON. HWENDE: This is a very serious matter, do not even thank me. 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  I am not taking it lightly either. 

         HON. HWENDE:  We were supposed to start with that in terms of that agreement.  Let us just stick to the agreement that we had as a Committee. 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Order, order! We are going to revert to that.

         HON. HWENDE:  Maybe you can say at what time.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  After Vote 28, we will revert – [HON. MEMBERS:  No!] –

         HON. HWENDE:  Even the people that are sitting with you there, they are waiting for the Minister to …..

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Order, Order Hon. Hwende!  It is important to know that every Vote is of the best interest of the country. 

         HON. HWENDE:  There was a resolution of the Committee, we all know all the Votes are important but there was a resolution of the Committee, all the Votes are important and that is why we are here.  We are here because we attach equal importance to all the Votes. 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Agreeable and I said we are going to revert to that – [HON. MEMBERS: No!] –

         HON. HWENDE: You cannot change that resolution, which powers are you using to change a resolution that was made by the whole House? 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  We will revert to that Vote.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: On a point of order Madam Speaker.  I think Madam Speaker, if we do not agree, can we divide the House on this issue. Number 2 starts before 16. We need to go to number 2 first then to number 16.  Do you suffer any prejudice if we do it now? After Vote number 2 we can then do Vote 16?

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Certainly not, we will revert to Vote 2.  I had already put Vote 16.  We are going to revert to Vote 2 when we are through with the Votes up to Vote 25.

         Vote 16 – Higher and Tertiary Education, Innovation, Science and Technology Development – ZWG10 523, 772, 000:        

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. NCUBE): Madam Chair, I see Hon. Members have no debate.  I wanted to debate but my debate is to add some more.  Last week I did stand up to say we are going to increase this budget because there are four colleges that the Ministry of Higher Education will be developing but they have not been included in the budget.  I propose that we add another 120 000 000 to this budget so that those resources can go towards starting the work on those four colleges.  I think one in Binga, one in Chivi, one in Plumtree and there is a fourth one it keeps escaping me. Thank you very much – [HON. MEMBERS:  Hear, hear.] –

         *HON. MAKUMIRE: On a point of order Hon. Makumire: You did not consider the other side, there was debate.

         *THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  May you allow me to take the correct procedure? I had checked both sides but I had not seen anyone willing to debate.

         HON. DR. KHUPE: Thank you very much Hon. Minister for adding the 120 000 000.  I hope this money will also go towards remuneration of lecturers. Like I said earlier on, we have got a serious issue of brain drain.  If you look at Midlands State University alone, it has lost 176 staff members and these are the lecturers who are supposed to be working in line with the Heritage Based Education 5.0.  It is there to integrate research, innovation and industrialisation into the learning and teaching ecosystem so that we revive our industry.

Madam Chair, if you go to colleges like Mutare Teachers’ College and see what the teachers and students are doing, they are performing wonders in terms of wood technology, agro-business, fisheries, goat rearing, crop production and all the other things.  Madam Chair, if the teachers could be remunerated decently, I think that we will not lose staff.  If you go to the Harare Institute of Technology, they came up with a tram on those urban trains.  They got that proto type and if these lecturers could be funded properly, we will be having those trams in towns very soon because we have the skill.  If you look at other lecturers, I was talking to one lecturer, I was saying why are you not researching on new cancer medications, they said Zimbabwe has got big brains.

 We can easily do that but because of the low remuneration, there is no one who can do that because we are supposed to be dedicating our time towards research.  So, with the little salaries we are getting, no one can afford that. Hon. Minister, I hope and trust that this money will also go towards the remuneration of lecturers so that we do not lose them if they get decent salaries. Thank you.

         *HON. TOBAIWA: I would like to thank the Hon. Minister for the increased money but the most important thing is not about the increment.  The problem is the time when the money will be released. The money should be released within its valuable time.

         HON. MANDIWANZIRA:  Thank you very much Madam Chair.  I would like to associate with the comments made by Hon. Khupe in thanking the Hon. Minister for considering the increase in the budget to Primary and Secondary Education.  The issue of the release of funds on time is a very critical issue.  I just want to suggest to the Hon. Minister that there are other key areas of revenue that perhaps you should consider to not burden himself too much with the disbursement.

         Since independence in 1980 until now, Zimbabweans have paid examination fees of varying amounts in USD to Cambridge University.  I have not heard in my entire life where Cambridge University has assisted in building schools here because they feed out of the investment by Government.  I have not heard where Cambridge University has offered scholarships to Zimbabweans because they benefit by getting exam fees from thousands of Zimbabweans.

         I am sure if we do calculations of how much has been paid in examination fees to Cambridge University in the UK, it will run into billions of USD.  So, my suggestion is perhaps in the taxing…

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  Point of order Madam Speaker.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIPERSON:  Order Hon. Mandiwanzira.  What is your point of order Hon. Madzivanyika?

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  I think we are now on Vote 16 on Higher and Tertiary Education instead of the Primary and Secondary education.  The Hon. Member was talking about Cambridge fees which has nothing to do with Primary and Secondary education.  I think it is a bit misplaced.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Higher Education includes secondary schools – [HON. MEMBERS: Ayewa marasika.] – Well noted, well noted.  Thank you.  Hon. Mandiwanzira please proceed.

         HON. MANDIWANZIRA:  Thank you to the Hon. Member.   The point remains the same.  I think we need to find a way of funding our education ministries from funds that have gone to Cambridge.  We need to find a way either to tax these funds or prick their conscience to say you have lured billions of dollars since independence in 1980.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  It is a very important contribution that has been made there but it does not qualify for this particular Vote.

HON. MANDIWANZIRA:  I accept Madam Chairperson.

^∞HON. NYELELE: Thank you Madam Chair.  I would like to add on to the debate on Higher and Tertiary Education.  We appreciate the money that the Hon. Minister has increased but despite that fact, it will still not be enough to give us all the things that we require.  It is still too low.  In light of the introduction of the transformed curriculum in higher and tertiary education by universities and its associate colleges, ZiG10.3 million is inadequate. It is 3,72 of the budget and is a decline from previous by 0.289% from last year by 4%. If we look at the heritage-based curriculum that we have in place, the resources required are too much for it to be efficient for example Hwange Teachers College where I come from, the students and the lecturers themselves do not have accommodation. That college has got nothing.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, Hon. Nyelele. You are debating Vote 15. We have moved to Vote 16 which is Higher and Tertiary.

HON. NYELELE: It is Higher and Tertiary Hon. Chair.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: According to the translation I am getting, you referred to a school that is Binga.

HON. NYELELE: Yes, a college which is Hwange Teacher’s College.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: You can proceed.

HON. NYELELE: In addition, we request that the money being allocated should be increased because the job that they are doing is very important for them to be able to teach the children. So I hereby kindly request that the Hon. Minister increase that money.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you Madam Chair. I have noted a concern that the Hon. Minister allocated ZiG18 million to the issue of the work for fees programme. I was of the opinion that Madam Chair, if you look at our State universities, we have around 12 state universities and an average enrolment of around 10,000 students giving around 120 000 students across the country. With our circumstances that 49% of Zimbabweans are poor, we may want the Hon. Minister to cushion particularly on the vulnerable high-performing students from A Level who may fail to get money to proceed to the university. I suggest that the Hon. Minister, in light of the circumstances increase the Vote for the school for the work for fees programme from ZiG18 million to ZiG50 million in light of our current circumstances.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Hon. Members. There has been a technical fault that needs to be attended to and business is suspended for 15 minutes. It is Twenty-four minutes past three and we are going to resume after 15 minutes at 15.39 p.m. Thank you.

Business was suspended for 15 minutes due to a technical challenge and resumed at 1542 hours.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, order! Can we all take our seats?

HON. ENG. MHANGWA: Madam Speaker, on the work for fees programme, it is my sincere hope that if the pocket that allows it to become a revolving fund, possibly to the tune of a million dollars, two million dollars or even more. If not, then a minimum of ZiG300 million for the work of fees in this budget year while working on making it one. Thank you.

         *HON. MAKUMIRE: Thank you Madam Chair.  I would like to talk about programme 1, policy and administration, it has been allocated 1 billion.  Looking at that figure, our universities have very critical roles and they need to be developed.  You realise that most of our children are going abroad for university education leaving our own universities.  A lot of students are going to Poland to such an extent that there seems not to be any students remaining in this country. That shows that our universities are not good enough.  The money allocated to this ministry shows that we are still a long way to work towards improving our universities. 

         The lecturers in universities are living in abject poverty.  If you meet them, you get to wonder whether they are even lecturers.  This is not a good image at all. This money must be increased by 2 billion so that our universities may conform to the expectations of this country, we must develop our country.  We cannot talk about that vision when we are not allocating enough money to the universities.

         I wish even on programme 3, that talks about science and technology and innovation, that is where the critical issue lies.  We cannot continue teaching as we were taught a long time ago.  Some countries are far developed in terms of modern technology, so may this Vote be increased.  I thank you.

         HON. MUTOKONYI: Thank you Madam Speaker. I was looking at our universities on the allocation, particularly on Marondera University of Agriculture, Science and Technology.  Given that our economy is an agro-driven economy Madam Chair and also with the institution given the sole mandate of teaching agriculture and its related fields,  I was looking at the issue of research, particularly funding on agricultural research, I am proposing Hon. Minister to increase the funds from 40 million that is there to 60 million so that the university can also expedite the research programmes so that we can achieve economic development.  I thank you.

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: Thank you Madam Chair, I have listened carefully to the contributions from various Members of this august House arguing in favour of improving the conditions of services for lecturers, the conditions of students in terms access to loans and also the conditions of the new colleges that need to be dealt with, especially the Member from Binga who talked about the Hwange College that needs to be built or we complete the building.  As I said earlier, I therefore propose that we increase the budget for this ministry by 120 million ZiG. I thank you.

         Vote 16 put and agreed to.

         On Vote 17, Women Affairs, Community, SMEs Development ZWG1 016 719 000:

         *HON. MUDZINGWA: Thank you Madam Chair, I would like to add my voice to the debate supporting the Ministry of Women’s Affairs. I would like to thank the Hon. Minister for the allocation but I would like to say as a Ministry, we have huge debts which means when that money comes, it is simply going to settle debts and we are left without money.  I am appealing that we be given more funds. The Ministry is building safe houses or one stop centres.   When women encounter domestic violence in their homes, they run to those shelters.  In the past, people used to take refuge from their neighbours but these days, people no longer want to be included in those fights because those stop centres are good because women seek refuge there.

         As a Ministry, we have employees in the rural areas to help teach women, they travel on foot yet they are the ones that are coordinating women.  If we can increase the Vote so that rural employees will use bicycles to do their work.  In addition, as you walk along the road, on the sides you will find women sometimes with babies on their backs selling bananas without shelter.   If we allocate more funds, we will build them vending places so that they will have somewhere to hide and they will have a place with ablution facilities and water.  They will be able to make their babies rest because they will be safe in that shelter rather than having to carry the baby on their backs for the whole day.

         We are very reliable as women and if you give us money, this will help us to enhance our businesses.  Thank you I submit.

         *HON. KARIMATSENGA-NYAMUPINGA: Thank you Chair.  Just looking at the ended of 16 days of Activism against Gender-Based Violence, the main cause of violence is that women are not empowered, they have nothing. I wish the Minister will inject more money to this Vote so that women can get information on what to do if abused.

         In the rural area, women are ignorant, they lack information and sometimes do not know what to do when faced with difficult situations. We want women to be empowered with information that concern them.  On the Women Empowerment Bank, women’s population is the largest as compared to men, yet there is only one bank.  That bank is not being given enough funds to cater for most women.  We want to remove the issue of collateral totally so that women may access that money. I would be very happy if the Hon. Minister increases the Vote, the money must also be disbursed in time so that women access that money.  The empowerment we are talking about can then be fulfilled.

                  As we are aware, most women venture into markets as well as SMEs. The markets of women do not have shelters and it is raining as we speak because the stalls are very few, looking at the number of women. May that area be given a lot of money so that descent markets may be constructed? If you look at countries like Nigeria, the economies rely on women who sell. Let us give them descent places to sell their wares. Let us also get ablution facilities because at the moment there are very few yet they need to get good and health ablution facilities as they work.

Looking at the SMEs, some of them go across the borders and need to be given enough money. Some of them now resort to smuggling goods because they will not have enough money. They also need to be taught on accounting so that they know how to run their businesses. If that is done, they will not avoid paying taxes because they will have received financial literacy. Hon. Minister, I expect you to get a lot of ululation from the women if you were to give them money.

HON. KADEMAUNGA: We would appreciate if we could debate this while the Minister is present or at least his deputy, if we could wait for him to come back.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: You want us to suspend until he returns. His personnel are also taking notes.

HON. KARIMATSENGA-NYAMUPINGA: I second. I actually had not seen that the Minister was not around.

HON. KARIKOGA: Yes, I acknowledge that the Minister is not here but his staff is here so business can carry on.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: The Hon. Minister was called outside because there has been a discrepancy in figures pertaining to this Vote and that is what he is working on. After the debate, there was an announcement of having added $40 million to the Ministry. So, when we were putting the Vote, we had used the initial allocation. So, they are rectifying looking at those figures. Fortunately, he is back now and we can proceed.

*HON. KARIMATSENGA-NYAMUPINGA: May I please repeat for the sake of the Minister. Hon. Minister, we had requested that we put more money in the Women’s Bank because women are the majority in terms of population, constituting 53%.  We hereby request that the Women’s Bank be given more money and remove the aspect of collateral. If you can find another way of circumventing that. We have people in the rural areas who loan out money but they have other ways of securing their money. Sometimes you only get money as a token, for example $50 cannot be used for anything reasonable.

We also request that women be given descent markets where they get ablution facilities. As they work, women need access to health facilities as you are aware that people have resorted to self-employment. Sometimes women have to run away from the local authority police and lose their wares in the process. If we have well built markets, they will be secure that way. Cross border women need to be given good money as well as induction so that they know the basic accounting practices so they do not end up avoiding paying taxes and smuggling goods because they want to get more profit to be able to look after their families. Minister, you can for once get ululations from women by giving them a lot of money. You will at least have acknowledged that you were born by a woman and that women, indeed do not cheat on anything. Give them money.

Right now, there is the issue of documentation. Most women in the rural areas do not have I.Ds and birth certificates because of lack of resources. Pour a lot of money so that these women can get documentation and can be traced, and can access health services from hospitals such as maternal care without any problems and do not end up going to unregistered midwives without proper training. At least if they get money which is allocated to them it is better because if it is not, they do not see it. 

We also need funds allocated for awareness so that they get educated and awareness campaigns which enables them to get information on violence so that they know where to go if they are victims, they will know where to go. In order to get rid of the problem of violence, women need to be empowered but when a woman has money, they will be peace and happiness but the moment the woman says there is no money, they are attacked. The women affairs should be taken seriously and considered as such.

We hear a lot of people saying women are the ones who constitute the family home, yet that woman is subject to violence everyday and they are living in fear. We want to dance in this Parliament when we get to hear how much money you are going to allocate to women.

HON. DR. KHUPE: There is a saying that there is no development which can take place when half of the population is left behind. Women constitute 52% of the population and contribute more than 80% to the GDP of this country. More importantly, women are nation builders and carry babies for nine months, give birth to them, nurture them to be Members of Parliament; Ministers of Finance, Engineers and so on. For the Minister to allocate 0,003% to such a critical mass because women are a force to recon with when it comes to the development of this country. Zimbabwe is highly informalised with more than 80% of the informal sector being women who cross borders every day to go and buy their products and they pay duty every day. The money that goes into the fiscus is being used by this country.  You cannot allow a situation where they are given that little money.

Hon. Nyampinga also spoke about the issue of GBV. The Minister did not allocate any resources towards GBV for awareness, advocacy, shelters or legal representation because women are being battered every now and then. They do not have a place to go and hide.  They do not have any legal representation.  I therefore propose that the Minister increases the budget by ZiG1.5 billion, I thank you.

         ^*HON. MAPIKI: Thank you Madam Chair.  Hon. Minister, I would like to thank you for the various ways that you are using to look for revenue. I saw the message towards churches to pay the taxes. These women affairs sector as well as the SMEs, I find it very big.  We realise that in China, SMEs got a lot of infrastructure built for them. 

SMEs include men and women who are doing small businesses and that is where the taxes come from.  I have realised along Simon Mazorodze Road, there were Vendor Marts and small to medium enterprises infrastructure. These SMEs are the remaining industry right now. So we need to empower that sector. If the Ministry is given adequate funding, they can work with the universities on innovation hubs, for example Siyaso or Glenview.  Universities facilitate with the information on value addition but it can only come up when that ministry or sector is organised. That will help the development of that sector.

         I struggle so much to understand why we continually look for money to be allocated to empower the Women’s Bank.  How come parastatals and other Government institutions do not bank with that bank, yet we bank our money with banks that may not be beneficial for this cause? There is need for Government policies that encourage banking with the Women’s Bank so that the bank may develop and then get money to assist people.

We have an MOU that we signed with India and Zimbabwe, it gives a lot of all the machines.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Mapiki, that is a general debate.  We want you to go to the specific Vote and talk on that.

^*HON. MAPIKI:  I think the money that was allocated should be increased.  May the money be allocated for that cause to be above a billion ZiG because that is the industry that we are depending on right now?

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  On a point of order. Since everyone has got the Blue Book, can they refer to a specific subhead that has been underfunded and try to motivate debate along that trajectory to save our honest time.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: I think this is what Honourable Members have been doing.  We were just pointing out to an Hon. Member but they do have their Blue Books. I believe they have gone through them and they are contributing towards that.  I encourage Honourable Members to stick to the debate of the Vote that was allocated to each ministry so that we can quickly proceed and avoid general debates.

         ^*HON. P. ZHOU: Thank you very much Madam Chair.  I would like to add a few words to the budget on women.  I want to approach it from another angle.  I want to look at Gender-Based Violence.

         Looking at famine side, many women have been killed because of domestic violence, be it by their boyfriends or relatives.  I have not seen any money allocated towards that cause yet the media is full of stories on femicide where women are killed because of gender. 

         We want a fund meant for that so that there can be awareness and quickly run away from such homes where there is violence.  I understand that 0.03% has been increased. I am saying since the figure is very small, may they be given their allocated money as soon as you start disbursing funds.  Even if disbursements to other ministries may delay, since the allocation for this ministry is very small, may this be allocated quickly and all at once?

         Women need to be taught on financial inclusion with regards to the Women’s Bank. This money is very little; if they are not taught accordingly, it will be utilised at a loss. We are the mothers and the grandmothers of this country, we are the ones who gave birth to all of you here, thus the Hon. Minister should consider us as very important. More money for women will transform the lives of this country. 

         ⁺HON. B. NDLOVU: Thank you Madam Chairperson.  I stand to add a few words to this Vote that is about the Ministry of Women Affairs and Small and Medium Enterprises.  Women are very important.  If you check, everything in the rural areas is under the supervision of women including those who are sick, they are being taken care of by women.  School going children are also being taken care of by women.   I request the Hon. Minister to increase the budget so that at least they can be empowered and that from whatever they do, they can be taking from their investments.

         In our language, we say every home stands because of women.  If it was possible that this House can unanimously agree that the ministry be given enough money to empower women, that whatever challenges they face, they can stand.

⁺HON. DHANZI: Firstly, I would like to applaud the Minister for giving us the budget and allocating us a figure. I would like to also plead to the Minister that there is a need for the Minister to consider to at least set the target similar to that of 2024, that 72 billion to support women empowerment and to ensure that they increase their contributions to the country’s Gross Domestic Product of the country.

On Gender Mainstreaming, provincial trainings held on GBV strategy are very few as we have ten trainings - that will be not enough to the women.  As you can see, there is a lot of abuse in our homes, specifically in rural homes, so they also want to get training. 

As per the mantra of our President of the Vison 2030, it says ‘leave no one and no place behind’.  There is need to facilitate these trainings to reach out to every district in the country rather than just a province and to also empower women with disabilities.  I thank you.

         +HON. LINYANE:  Thank you Madam Chair, I rise to add few words to the Vote.   We are pleading for the allocation to be increased to take care of women so that women can be educated and empowered.  You find that when lecturers or trainers come to train our women in the rural areas, they run out of stationery.  Right now, there was the 16 Days of Activism march in Lupane and we realised that some of the Members of Parliament from Women Affairs did not attend because of financial constraints, hence we are appealing that let the allocation be increased and also that trainers visit all areas.  I thank you. 

         *HON. CHAKAKURA: I want to thank the Minister for the money that was allocated to the Vote by the Hon. Minister.  I am kindly requesting for upwards review for disaster relief fund.  If we have a disaster like fire, if women’s stuff is destroyed, they can go and request from that disaster relief fund.  Madam Chair, if they get a limited amount, they will have somewhere to start from and with that amount they will then support their families.  I thank you.

         *THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you Hon. Member.  The issue that you mentioned is very important.  It actually focuses on the Ministry of Local Government which houses the Civil Protection Department.  I thank you. 

         HON. M. C. SIBANDA:  Thank you Madam Chair.  The fact that about 85% of the SMEs are in informal sector, it is now an issue affecting the revenue that we want to collect as Treasury but I noted that the Ministry of Home Affairs is budgeting some money to train and try to make sure that these people are formalised.   When I was working with that figure, I realised that the figure of training SMEs translates to about US$1 600 if I was to convert to US dollars per province.  Surely, that cannot be enough to train and make sure that these people are formalised.  I urge the Ministry maybe to consider the money that has been set aside for training because if these people are still continuing informally, they need support from the SMEDCO, which is the bank allocated for small to medium enterprises as well as from the Women’s Bank.  I submit Madam Chair. 

         *HON. GANYIWA: Thank you Madam Speaker. I would like to add my voice on the issue to do with the upward review of the budget focusing on the women to small and medium enterprises.  I am actually expecting our Minister, whenever he reviews the budget upwards, to critically tell us his aim in trying to match those who are close to the banks and those who are in urban areas.  I am kindly requesting the Minister to ensure that whenever he increases, a certain percentage be allocated directly to those who are in rural areas.  I am focusing on the President’s mantra of leaving no place and no one behind.

Madam Chair, if you look at the rural areas, right now we are focusing on the issue whereby we reduce the rural to urban migration.  We would like to reverse it so that those in urban migrate back to rural areas.  I am kindly asking that we have some certain markets which we call open markets where people can do buying and selling on all products that people do manufacture or they grow from those areas. They must not go to urban areas to look for such items.  We have an example of an area where we suspect that if you secure some of the funds focusing on small to medium enterprises - widening the open markets for those in rural areas so that citizens in rural areas might get everything they require without travelling to urban areas. I was expecting the Minister to allocate a certain percentage, 75% be allocated to people who are based in rural areas.  I thank you Madam Chair.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTON (HON. PROF. NCUBE):  Thank you Madam Chair.  I thank the Hon. Members for their contributions.  Yes, I did check some of the figures regarding this specific Vote. Firstly, I think the critical area in this Vote that needed attention is increasing the share capital of the Women’s Bank as well as SMEDCO.  This is where the enterprising women are able to access loans, so we needed just a bigger resource pool to be able to access these loans. 

         Secondly, we have been working hard with IPEC and also the Women’s Bank to get Women’s Bank, what we call prescribed asset status, which means that the bank is able to invest jointly with various pension funds. The pension funds could also even take equity in the bank because as Government, we are not close to the idea of a minority stake going to pension funds which can infuse more capital into the bank.  What the prescribed assets status will do is, it will again enable this sharing and additional capital to the bank. The third thing that we are doing is making sure that the bank can also receive a bank guarantee from the Treasury for a certain category of loans. This will deal with the issue of collateral where we will be able to remove or reduce the collateral requirement. We will at the same time be able to reduce the interest rate at which women entrepreneurs borrow from the bank.

         After the debate last week, I did make some responses and already we have incorporated an increase to the tune of ZiG40 million towards the empowerment programme and credit for the banks. I thank you.

         HON. G. HLATYWAYO: I have an objection. Thank you Hon. Minister for your response. I just wanted to find out specifically on the GBV funds because I think that it is very important. We hear you on the Women’s Empowerment Bank but perhaps if you can also speak to the GBV issue. My understanding is that donor partners are also pulling out or are reducing significantly funds that are earmarked for Gender-Based Violence, especially as it relates to the provision of shelters.

 I think that it would be very important for the Government to provide the service to women who are suffering from GBV in the context of this dwindling of donor funds,  such funds under the UN, FPA, and other UN agencies.  I just wanted him to speak to that. Thank you.

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: I would have to double-check with my officials if that has been placed under any of these Votes. Just give me a minute.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Noted.

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: It looks like GBV has received an allocation of ZiG4 100 000 in this Vote. I thank you Madam Chair.

         Vote 17 put and agreed to.

         On Vote 18 - Home Affairs and Cultural Heritage- ZiG 16 183 387 000:

         *HON. NYANDORO: Thank you so much Madam Chair. Kindly allow me to debate focusing on the Zimbabwe Police Force. If you look at our police, you will feel pity starting from their uniforms up to their salaries to the extent that these police officers are being looked down upon.  They are now being accused of receiving some bribes. This is because they are being underpaid. If we also look at the infrastructure of our police force, some of them were built way back and they are no longer favourable for our uniformed forces to be working on.

For, example in my Constituency, the community ended up putting resources together so that they could renovate the police station simply because it was no longer favourable for the police officers to be working there. I am kindly requesting for the Minister to review upwards the budget line for the police officers so that they have favourable working spaces.

If women are abused, they will then go to the police forces where the police will request them to go and request for transport to attend such cases.  The use of those police officers is that of safeguarding us. If they do not have enough resources, they cannot safeguard us.  It is my plea that the Minister kindly review the issue of police welfare.  I thank you.

         **HON. BONDA:  Thank you Madam Chair. Our borders LINES are not being patrolled properly.  We are witnessing some border jumpers who are coming in from Zambia and are stealing our livestock in Jambezi area of Sidinda. It is because our police officers who are being deployed at border lines do not have enough resources like vehicles to transport them to their check points.  Madam Chair, you find that at some other border lines, there are dangerous animals like elephants which may attack police officers patrolling border lines.

In the evening, it is very difficult to patrol border lines.  We are requesting that the Minister add funds so that we buy vehicles.  We witnessed some other vehicles that were bought recently but the border control unit is very porous.  There are no vehicles for patrolling and protecting our cattle from rustlers on border lines nationally.  I thank you.

*HON. NYABANI:  Thank you Madam Chair.  I would like to speak on the issue of the police force.  The police force should get resources.  Right now, you discover that a police officer cannot do justice to those mushikashika vehicles that ferry them from point A to point B.  Police officers are being housed in Harare and they will be working in Bindura.  They must have enough places of residence.  It is very difficult for them to arrest their landlords.  So, Hon. Minister, kindly provide a budget for the police officers to build enough houses where they can stay. 

If they are staying in somebody’s premises, it is very difficult to arrest the landlord. On the issue to do with transport, the police officers are commuting every now and then it is very difficult for them to arrest those commuter operators.  I thank you.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Let us try to debate what was not debated before.  I thank you.

*HON. MANANZVA:  Thank you Chair. I would like to make a contribution on the Home Affairs Budget. In urban areas, when we have accidents in the evening, the scenes are being attended to late because the police do not have transport to move from point A to point B. I am suggesting that their budget be increased and provide them with motorbikes – [HON. MEMBERS:  Inaudible interjections.] –

*THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Order. Hon. Members on my left, yes, it is important you want to chair but we cannot all chair. If I notice any errors, I will tell them to sit down. Thank you Hon. Mananzva, kindly proceed.

*HON. MANANZVA:  Thank you Chair. I was suggesting that if they avail motorbikes for them, that can assist them to attend the accident scenes in time. I thank you.

*HON. MAJAYA:  Thank you Madam Speaker. I am kindly requesting for an upward review of Home Affairs Budget from ZiG6 billion to ZiG8 billion. If you look at the police officers, as they attend to accidents, the metal coffins they use are dilapidated. They acquired them many years ago. They were given Mahindra type of vehicles which are not that strong. They must be given vehicles which are strong and durable which last a little bit longer.

*HON. S. TSHUMA:  Thank you Chair. I would like to add my voice on the issue to do with Home Affairs. I have three points that I want to debate on supporting those who have mentioned that the Home Affairs Budget must be revised upwards. The first issue is of accommodation for police officers. The amount which is being earned by police officers is just equivalent to us as MPs. We all know how civil servants are being paid. The amount of money is little for them to go to a location and start renting a house. Those are some of the problems which increases the rate of corruption.

Other people can go to their working places without confidence because when you go back home and want to pay rentals, as a family person, it will be difficult. We are simply saying, the Government has to build accommodation which is enough for all police officers and enough schools for school going children to benefit from within so that they can work freely. There is no one who can work without freedom.

The second issue, I would like first of all to thank our Government. If we go round the country, you will see that police officers were offered vehicles. We used to cry that they do not but right now, most of the police stations have got vehicles. The problem now is on fuel. These vehicles Chair, if they do not have fuel, you would have not done anything. We discovered that the vehicles will be using the jerricans or plastic tins to collect fuel and pour into their vehicles. Even if they would want to attend a post mortem, accident or a murder, sometimes they do not have funds for fuel.

They would approach you, complain and ask you to assist and ferry the police officer to Harare or Bulawayo for his duty. This means we have limited resources. I am kindly asking that if you go around the police stations, you would discover that there are fuel tanks which have been there since way back, which are no longer used.  It is my plea that the police officers be allocated enough fuel whenever they want to attend to cases. 

We have district reaction groups which will be based on the camps. Their duty is to be on standby so that if something happens, they will  attend as soon as possible. Some of the cases will be whereby a robbery took place and they escape without police officers taking any action. Giving an example of a heist which took place in Bulawayo. The criminals travelled kilometers until they crossed the border. It is a signal to show that we have weakness within our police force. I would like to emphasise on some of the issues where police officers ended up having other groups, they call the back force, business against crime and the business people discovered that if they leave the police officers alone, they will be on the losing side. By so doing, they end up spending more. So, Minister, you should look into that.

The third issue is that of supporting the Home Affairs Budget. In rural areas, police bases are there and are a bit more than police stations. I will take an example of the Gokwe North. We have one police station which has got an officer in charge and three base stations. In Gokwe North, we have close to 500 thousand citizens…

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Hon. Tshuma, you are now going into the general debate. Please, kindly focus on the budget allocation. What is important is that you spoke to the issue to do with fuel and they have to be provided with more fuel, which is fine. I know as Hon. Members you have your respective constituencies whereby you want to name them one by one. Remember you represent the whole country. If you debate anything to do with fuel, that helps us to be focused. I thank you.

*HON. S. TSHUMA:  Thank you Madam Chair. We will be trying to put everything out as open as possible. I am trying to say in the base stations where we have a lot of people, they do not have resources like motorbikes. In those areas, the road network is not that good. I am kindly requesting for the Minister to look into such areas which have a bigger area of coverage so that they have resources such as motorbikes so that they can go to all crime scenes. Sometimes, local residents end up contributing for the police officer’s rentals for one or two rooms. It will be difficult for the constituents to understand that they are now building accommodation for those police officers. Kindly increase the budget for those areas so that we reduce crime rate.

HON. MAVHUNGA: Thank you Madam Chairperson for this opportunity. I would like to implore the Ministry to allocate more funds to Home Affairs, in particular to the Police Service. Looking at Programme 3.2, when it comes to crime management which is responsible for detection, investigation, prevention of crime, arresting of offenders, facilitating prosecution, traffic management and border controls. I would like to implore the Minister to allocate more funding, particularly in the area of information communication and technology when it comes to policing.

I think we are in 2024 and the use of traditional methods of law enforcement can be slow and retrogressive in performing the required services. So I would like to implore the Minister to allocate more funds to the police so that they can invest in ICT, Artificial Intelligence, CCTV, Body Cams. If you look at bodycams, they can detect things like corruption. We have seen a lot of bribery at police road blocks, police chases. If there are bodycams, they can be deterred from getting bribes because they know that they are being recorded, their cars have got dash board cams, which means their cars are recording every activity that they are doing. So if they get more money they will be able to invest in such technologies. If you look at traffic management, they need speed trap technologies. I know when we were growing up we had a lot of technology, a lot of speed trap gadgets that the police used on the roads. Now we have got a lot of accidents and a lot of people are dying on the roads but our police do not have these speed trap gadgets that they can use to deter public transporters, drivers from speeding on the highways. So I would implore the Minister to look at what the police services was allocated so that they can get more money and be able to invest in information communication technology and be able to police in the 21^st century.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Hon. Members, can you take your seats. We want to do things differently so that we are able to move. We want to avoid as much as possible going into general debate. We were served with hard copies and soft copies of the Blue book, hence what we are supposed to do is go through each allocation. So as from now, you go straight to what you want to debate on and look at the allocation that was given to that particular item and propose what you think can be added. So, it is one minute or two minutes at most on each Hon. Member who is going to be given the floor. Are we in agreement? – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear]-

HON. MAVHUDZI: Point of order Madam Speaker.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: What is your point of order?

HON. MAVHUDZI: I do not know Madam Chair, I think there are some instances where you would want to justify why you are asking for an increase. I do not know how you are going to take that?

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: We had a whole session of general debate and we took time and most people got an opportunity to venture into justification as to why each Ministry is supposed to be given a huge sum of allocation. So, we are going to proceed.

HON. PINDUKA: Thank you Madam Chairperson. On the Ministry of Home Affairs and Cultural Heritage, under the Civil Registration Department, it has been allocated 1.3 billion and my submission to the Hon. Minister is to increase this budget allocation to two billion so that the department can also further renovate and construct new sub offices around our rural districts. You will find that quite a number of sub offices in around rural districts, some are not yet completed in terms of construction, some are even less than 50%. So an additional allocation to Civil Registration Department, I propose from 1.3 to 2 billion, it will go a long way in making sure that these sub offices under the civil registration are completed.

HON. DR. KHUPE: Thank you very much Madam Chairperson. Programme 3.2 which is on policy, criminals are going into people’s homes with guns in broad daylight. They are going into people’s business with guns. They are going into banks like what the other Hon. Member said, Ecobank and Central Police station is just about 100 metres apart but they were robbed and nothing happened. So I would like…

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Khupe, you are going straight into the general debate.

HON. DR. KHUPE: Okay. I would like to propose but I do not know how much drones cost. I would like to propose that the Minister allocates resources so that the police force are able to buy drones which will be the eyes of the police so that they are able to identify crime in real time.

HON. HWENDE: On a point of order.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: What is your point of order?

HON. HWENDE: Thank you. The biggest problem is that you cannot limit Hon. Members to specific proposal on the budget line without brief debate to justify because we do not know prices. I can not just say add two billion - on what basis? I can justify then the Minister and his officials with their budget they know what to add.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON. Thank you Hon. Hwende, I did not stop people from explaining but do not explain for a long time. I thank you.

^∞HON. MUCHIMBA: Thank you Hon. Chairperson. On the issue of Home Affairs, we are requesting the Minister to look at the issue of border controls. He should increase the allocation in line with the border controls, especially from Kariba to Binga there are no speed boats. So, if there are some incidents along the Zambezi, the officers take a lot of time to rescue or for those who will be doing business for matemba.  There is need for the increase in terms of allocation, specifically for speed boats of police officers.

^*HON. CHIDZIVA: Thank you Madam Chairperson. On the issue of Heritage, I suggest that they increase the budget line to 1 billion because we would want to bring back our culture whereby people would do festival culturally on annual basis. They have to be done in various areas.  If you do not allocate funds in that area, you are promoting people to run away from their tradition and do something which is different from their tradition. We need a budget allocation so that we will be able to trace and take things which were taken from this country to UK. Next year all people are supposed to be paying back or returning what was taken from Africa and taken back. We need a reserved budget for that.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Thank you very much Hon. Chair and I thank the Hon. Members for a very robust debate and contribution indeed to this Vote.  First of all, there are Members who spoke to issues of tools of trade for our police.  You saw a few months ago at least through the media if you were not present at the ceremony, we were able to provide the police with tools of trade.  His Excellecy was able to give them quite a number of cars which they use as part of their tools of trade. 

         So, we have been supportive of the police but also you may recall a time when we were able to source helicopters as well for the police so that they can respond timeously to certain emergencies.  So on the issue of mobility for the police, we are focused on that and the budget does cover that. 

         The second area is cantonment, which is a multi-year programme, you can never build all the required apartments to provide adequate accommodation in one year. So we allocated an amount every year and we are on to that, the budget does include an element of cantonment. 

         I now turn on to the issue of ordinary welfare, issues of the stomach and so forth.  As I mentioned last week, we began a programme of procurement for food for our men and women in uniform.  The programme was very successful, we started that with the army, the Ministry of Defence and has been very successful. We have been able to save money and improve the quality of food.  We have again extended that programme to the Department of Prisons.  I got a report yesterday when we had the pass out parade in Ntabazinduna. When I was there with the Hon. Minister of Justice accompanying the Hon. President, I got a report, the Minister of Justice did that, the programme is really assisting our officers, it is assiting our prisoners and the quality of food has improved, it is visible.

         We will then exchange this programme in 2025 to the police. Again, we want to make sure we can ease the procurement process by reducing the cost of procurement through a bulk system that will ensure availability and affordability of whatever is being procured for their food. 

         There is an issue that I saw in the media, no one raised it, which is why we have not had a pass-out parade for the police of late.  This is our women and men in uniform, there has to be pass-out parade, otherwise they would not have graduated and so forth.  We have gotten to the bottom of the issue and again in our budget, we have made provision to make sure that whatever they are lacking, be it uniforms, boots, caps and so forth, these again will be catered for.  Also the police are covered by the military salary concept.  I did go to town and try to explain this concept for the police that there is even a differentiation between female and male police in terms of requirements and again there are specific allowances for those with a trade who are just not doing normal policing. 

         So, there is a lot that is in this budget which is not obvious to everybody and we really feel that at 7% of the entire budget, this budget is really appropriate for the demands of this Ministry.  Besides, I have been Hon. Minister now for seven years, there have been few years in the past when the police have come to say we have got an emergency Minister, could you dig deep in your unallocated reserves, toda kutenga zvakati and we jumped and complied and did these things.  I feel that the current allocation is adequate in terms of what we were able to cover initially.  If anything is needed, then our UR will be there to support them further. I thank you.

         Vote 18 put and agreed to.

         On Vote 19 - Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs - ZiG5 644 932 000 :

         HON. KANGAUSARU: Thank you Hon. Chair, I advocate for additional funding for this Ministry.  The reason is that this Ministry serves as a back borne of our democracy and custodian of justice and equity and the rule of law.  Yet despite all this pivotal role it is upholding, it only got 5.6bn. I think also there are a number of things that need to be considered although it was ranked 11^th among all these Votes. However, the allocation does not reflect the magnitude of the Ministry for the pressing needs which it must address. 

There are a number of things that must be considered since it is critical area that must be considered.  Regardless of this, our infrastructure tells us a different story.     Our courts in Hurungwe, Kwekwe, Guruve and Mutawatawa are under funded and are incomplete and leaving many citizens struggling to access justice.  If you look at Gwanda Magistrate Court for instance, it requires US$4 million to be completed but was allocated a fraction of the amount in ZiG. This is a denial of justice for the entire region.  The centralisation of justice infrastructure is critical Madam Chair. It ensures that no Zimbabwean must travel a long distance to seek legal recourse.  Investing in these courts is  not leisure, it is a constitutional and moral obligation. 

Furthermore, the Deeds Office is an institution …..

         HON. CHIGUMBU :  On a point of order Madam Chair.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: What is your point of order ?

         HON. CHIGUMBU : A few minutes ago, you said we must not debate and Hon. Kangausaru is now debating. He must be specific so that we save our time.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON :  Please proceed Hon. Kangausaru.

         HON. KANGAUSARU : Madam Chair, if you look at the Deeds Office, it is an institution of immense importance, it safeguards property rights which are the corner stone of economic growth and stability but only received 906 million, yet it is a much needed investment that will ensure sufficient management of land property.  Additionally, the Deeds Office plans to host intellectual property in 2025 requiring 250 million.  This positions Zimbabwe as a regional leader in intellectual property rights fostering investment growth.  The combined requirements of the ZiG is 1 332 750 000 for these initiaves. It is not an expense but an investment in our nation’s future. 

If you look at Midlands, it faces an overwhelming backlog of murder cases and therefore, it requires something like US$9 million as it is needed to begin the construction in 2025.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Members, can you allow him to be heard in silence.

HON. KANGAUSARU: The Judiciary Training Institute is a critical institution which requires at least ZiG 81 000 000 to operate effectively to ensure that our judicial officers are well equipped to administer justice. It needs to train judges, staff as well as presiding officers in our customary courts. It is disheartening to note that this institution did not receive any allocation this year whereas it needs almost like $81 million to operate effectively.

Furthermore, if you look on the Integrated Electronic Case Management System (IECMS), it represents a bold step towards modernising judicial processes. However, its roll-out faces significant challenges due to inadequate investment in infrastructure and training…

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Madam Chair, I thought we agreed that we give each other two minutes at most so that one can just motivate his point. The Hon. Member is reading from a script and he has spent more than two minutes. Let us stick to our rule that we agreed on.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that reminder. As I was following his contributions, he has written down of course but he wrote – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Hon. Kangausaru, what you need to avoid is over-emphasis but you are in line. Please proceed. He was just about to finish. I was looking at his papers, so he was on the last page. Please wind up.

HON. CHIGUMBU: This House must be an epitome of fairness. I hope those who are going to debate after Hon. Kangausaru are going to be treated the same.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: For as long as there is no repetition and over-emphasis.

HON. KANGAUSARU: Thank you Madam Chair for protecting me. Yes, I wrote this because I was writing them as points but let me just conclude by saying justice delayed is justice denied, justice unfounded is justice betrayed. So, we need …

THE TEMPORARYCHAIRPERSON: Is that a contribution to the Vote?

HON. KANGAUSARU: No, no. I was just saying I therefore advocate for funding for this Ministry to be added maybe by 10% increase on the allocation for us to be able to meet justice for our people. that is what I was trying to say.

*HON. MAKUMIRE: My contributions are with regard to Programme Three (3), which speaks about incarceration, rehabilitation and reintegration of offenders. I will talk about sub-programme One (1) which speaks about prison services. Madam Chair, the situation and conditions in the prisons is very bad. There is no food and prisoners are suffering a lot, yet they have equal rights because they are citizens. The clothes of prisoners, for example for men you will not know whether it is a skirt or what because it will be torn. When they go to eat and meet in the open compound, it will be a very sad state. There is need for allocation of funds so that prisoners will be decently dressed. 

I would like to look at infrastructure at prisons. There is no electricity in those places. It was repaired a long time ago and when we are outside like this, we do not think about what is happening inside but the day when you go inside, you will understand how it is. Right now, there are people who were running with it but are now behind bars …

*THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: You started well Hon. Makumire but you are now into general debate.

*HON. MAKUMIRE: On Programme 3, the proposal is, the sewer system in prisons be rectified because when they flash their toilets, the sewage does not go anywhere. It flows back and they sleep in that raw sewage. The health of the prisoners must be taken into account and a lot of funds allocated for that purpose. With regards to female prisons, there are some women who are arrested with young children but those kids are not getting adequate food because the mother is not able to feed that child properly since they will be under arrest. Government must buy supplementary feeds.

The other problem is during amnesty. When the prisoners are released, some of them do not even get home. They prefer to go back to prison because the issue of reintegration is not adequately funded and this is an issue that we need to look into and assist Hon. Ziyambi’s Ministry, especially with regards to prisons.

On the same note, I wish that for the funds allocated for Programme 3, sub-programme 1 of $3,6 billion, that money must be increased to $5 billion so that all our prisons are renovated, especially inside so that they at least get a facelift. We have prisons in district, provincial levels, high security prisons like Chikurubi, they all need to be renovated so that they do not harden the prisoner. Instead they must understand and appreciate that they are undergoing rehabilitation and not go back to commit the same crime.  If that place is too tough, it tends to harden the person instead of softening or correcting that person’s behaviour.

         I wish the money be allocated to the figure I referred to. 

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. NCUBE): Thank you Madam Chair, I thank Hon. Members for their contribution.  Their contributions focused on the welfare of the officers who are involved in the correctional services activities. 

         It also pertains to the welfare of prisoners, those two are happy to report that when it comes to the food for example, we have put in place a new system as of two months ago where we are using a bulk procurement system.  The report I got yesterday in Ntabazinduna as I have said earlier, shows that there has been improvement in the quality of food and its general availability. 

         Madam Chair, we are focusing on improving the quality of housing for staff. We have been improving the quality of the kitchens in the various cantonment areas.  I asked Permanent Secretary Guvamatanga to embark on a programme to go around the country to visit all kitchens of the key cantonment facilities or prisons. Of course, we are not so happy with what we saw - they were in a poor state   and again our programme involves the revamping and upgrading of these kitchen facilities.

         Yesterday, at Ntabazinduna, what I saw as well Madam Chair, is that there is need just for some budget to support the infrastructure development at the training center for the prison officers.  With all what Honourable Members have ably contributed to this Vote, I propose that the Vote for the Ministry of Justice be increased by 100 million ZiG.

         Vote 19 put and agreed to.

Vote 20 - Information Publicity and Broadcasting Services -ZiG433,148,000:

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  Thank you Madam Chair.  Given the work that is needed to shape and continue reshaping the image of our country, I propose that this be increased by 50 million ZiG.

         HON. HWENDE: Point of order Hon. Chair.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: What is your point of order Hon. Hwende.

         ^*HON. HWENDE:  It means the Hon. Minister has some monies reserved aside which he would just allocate as he wishes?  He is putting ZiG 50 million from where?  The members are satisfied that the budget is adequate.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: The Hon. Minister is justified as to why …

         HON. HWENDE: There is no justification.  What justification is there?

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, Hon. Hwende.

         HON. DR. MUTODI: I think Madam Chair, we need to remember that Chairpersons of Committees presented in this House justifying some increases.  Hon. Caston Mateu specifically said that we need to digitalise. There are still some areas who do not receive waves from our central broadcasting services. 

         This is the basis why the Hon. Minister has increased the allocation to the Ministry of Information. 

         HON. ENG. MHANGWA: Thank you Madam Chair, Ma’am.  It gives two assumptions.  The first one – considering that after the Chairman debated, the Hon. Minister responded, it is either that the Hon. Minister is prepared and he is not listening to the debate and has already something that he would say, once you get to this stage, we will do this.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, Hon. Mhangwa.

         HON. ENG. MHANGWA: Madam Chair, the reason why the House debates is because the House looks at what has been proposed and adds or subtracts.  When he adds on his own, where is he getting that?  Who proposed the 50 million, from the Members? –[ HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Order, Hon. Mhangwa.  Hon. Mutodi’s argument is valid? – [ HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – the Hon. Minister is responding to the Chairperson’s debate and it is the entire Committee that contributed to the Chairperson’s report.  - [HON. MHANGWA: The point of order is there.] –

         Vote 20 put and agreed to.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: I have put Vote 21 – [HON. HWENDE: There is an objection Madam Chair, we have a point of law of reference to the objection.] -  Order! Order! Can we have order in the House?  It means Hon. Madzivanyika and Hon. Hwende, you should take your seats. 

HON. HWENDE: There is an objection Madam Chair, we are not going to move, there is an objection, you must deal with the objection. You must make a ruling on the objection, that is what the rules say. The rules are clear, there is an objection.

Objection overruled – [HON. MADZIVANYIKA: There is no way. You do not make an overruling when I said it out loud. You do not know the objection; what overruling are you doing.]- Objection overruled.  Honourable Members, can you all take your seats? – [HON. HAMAUSWA: You cannot overrule an objection.] – it has been overruled; you can take your seats – [HON. HWENDE: You cannot overrule an objection.] – it has been overruled – [HON. HWENDE: You cannot, it is illegal.] – I have overruled it. Please take your seats. Hon. Hwende and Hon. Madzivanyika take your seats. – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections] –

HON. CHIGUMBU: Point of order Madam Chair.

Vote 21 - Youth Empowerment, Development and Vocational Training – 1 090 965 000 – [HON. MEMBERS:  Inaudible interjections.] –

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Chigumbu, Hon. Hwende and Hon. Madzivanyika can you approach the Chair. 

         The Hon. Members having approached the Chair. 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, order, I would like to apologise for having not recognised Hon. Madzivanyika – [HON. Members: Hear, hear.] –

         HON. MAVUNGA:  I would like to thank the Minister for what he has allocated already but I would like to implore him to allocate further funds.  If you look at programme 2, which is Youth Development and Employment Creation which has two programmes, sub-programme 1, Youth Development and National Youth Service, sub-programme 2, Vocational Training and Skills Development which was allocated about 786 million. 

         I would like to implore the Minister to allocate a further 300 000 000 to this Ministry and in particular to this programme which is programme 2. The reason being that the President declared a national disaster when it comes to drug and substance abuse in this country which is affecting a lot of young people. The Ministry of Youth caters for the bulk of young people who are out of school which is estimated at about three million.  I believe the Ministry of Youth is at the centre of fighting and combating the effects of drug and substance abuse.  They do that through their programming, specifically the programme through their Ministry.

So, if these programmes are adequately funded, it means that the young people who are out of school now have an opportunity not to engage in drug and substance abuse. This is because the Ministry is well capacitated and well-equipped to implement these programmes which can go to every part of this country.  If these programmes are not allocated enough money, I would like to believe that young people will continue to fall down the drain of drug and substance abuse.

 Hence, I believe that this programme should be allocated a further 300 million so that young people are able to be developed through National Youth Service and Vocational Training Centres. The Minister has the capacity to allocate these funds so that our young people do not die from drug and substance abuse but engage in programmes that are building and empowering, and position them better to be in this country.  Thank you.

HON. MALINGANISO:  Thank you Madam Chair.  I also propose that the Ministry reviews upward its allocation to the Empowerbank with a further ZiG250 million to arrive at a place where their capitalisation quest is well funded.  Those youth that are capacitated as was alluded to by Hon. Mavunga, also access loans from this particular bank to make certain that we have actually defeated the scourge of drug and substance abuse. Moreover, the bank be available in all provinces. Currently, it is only available in three.  Thank you.

HON. TSVANGIRAI:  I want to speak on Programme 2 which speaks to youth development and employment.  I must raise concerns about the youth service programme.  This programme does not align with the aspirations of young people.  What the youth are seeking through this budget is not a lecture on patriotism but tangible opportunities.  For example, job creation and entrepreneur support. 

I recommend that we defund the youth service programme by 90% and redirect these resources towards programmes that foster job creation and economic empowerment for youth.  By doing so, we address their needs more effectively and invest in the future of our nation.  Let us focus on tangible opportunities.  Thank you.

HON. SAKUPWANYA:  I would like to focus on the programme, that is youth services of Zimbabwe which is part and parcel of our vocational training.  We saw successful re-initiation being done by the Ministry this year.  In so doing, we know that the young people who have attended, not only have a sense of patriotism which is necessary to have an ideology but they are also trained in various forms of entrepreneurship, given skills where we have a shortage in our country, of skills to the tune of 2.2 million, young people who are not educated in employment or any form of training.  I do encourage that we have additional funding to the specific programme that is youth services in Zimbabwe with the goal that hopefully, we can incorporate it into our curriculum. This will enable young people that when they finish their O levels, at least they have some form of skills training that is touched and aligned to ideological training.  I thank you.

*HON. KANGAUSARU: Thank you Madam Chair. I propose that the money for vocational training be increased for the youth, especially in the rural areas. If we have Vocational Training Centres, they can get assistance. Most of the youths are into mining, 60% of them. If we assist them, they can then acquire skills. If we train them in mining, farming for example in Hurungwe, that is where we get less successful farmers.

         Most of the youths are just roaming about engaging in drugs because they have nothing to do. If we train them, tomorrow they will not turn into thieves and thugs and will avoid drugs. Instead, we need to have such training centres everywhere in the country. I thank you.

+HON. BAJILA: Thank you Madam Chair. I would like to get my voice on Programme 3 which talks about increasing performance where there is a need to increase budget allocation to sporting activities in other countries. This is where the country needs to cover the expenses. In most cases, Zimbabwean athletes like cricket have gone to represent the country in different sporting disciplines outside the country. However, each time they are in those countries, the Government fails to pay for the Zimbabwean athletes to take part in sporting activities in those countries.

Our plea is that …

HON. MAVUNGA: On a point of order Madam Chair. The Hon. Member, though passionate and enthusiastic on the programme, I think that goes under the Ministry of Sports. That is why there are no numbers allocated in the Blue book. Thank you.

+HON. BAJILA: Thank you Madam Chair. Yes, he is correct in one way and wrong in another way. There is where it is indicated ‘outcome indicator’. It is indicated that we need to have youngsters who go and partake in sporting activities in other countries. This needs to help youngsters to partake in these activities representing the country. It is therefore critical that we have more funds allocated. Thank you Madam Chair.

HON. MAVUNGA: It is okay Madam Chair, he got back to his senses.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Mavunga, can you reverse what you just said.

HON. MAVUNGA: My apologies Madam Chair, I reverse.

       *HON. GWANGWABA: Thank you Madam Chair. I would like to debate on Vote 2 on the youth. Indeed, we have put efforts into assisting the youth. What I want to say is that the whole country, we think that the Vocational Training Centres should teach people the same skills. I give examples of places like Kariba, Binga where there is a lot of fishing done. In those areas, we should ensure that they are taught fishing and taking care of wildlife. They end up going to Mushandike or other colleges. They must get those colleges in their localities. The Hon. Minister should allocate a billion on that because those colleges can do tannery because there is a lot of hides from wild animals. There are a lot of youths who are not doing anything who can benefit from that. I thank you Chair.

*HON. MANANZVA:  Thank you Madam Chair. May the Hon. Minister increase funds that are allocated to the youth service? They are taught patriotism. If they are trained and unpatriotic, they may end up running away from the country. Hon. Minister, please pour more money so that the youths go to the National Youth Service. Everyone has to go through the National Youth Service so that this country has a more patriotic people just like what happens in America, China and other countries.

*HON. MAVHUDZI:  Madam Chair, whilst we appreciate the importance of ideological orientation to our youths, we feel that the youths of this country have got other pressing issues that need urgent attention. We are looking at job creation, psychomotor issues, drug and substance abuse issues. I would propose that we reallocate funding from the National Youth Service towards drug abuse and other issues that affect the youths of this country.

*HON. HAMAUSWA:  Thank you Madam Chair. I would like to debate about Vocational Training Centres (VTC). I support what Hon. Gwangwava was saying. We need to allocate even a billion. If you look at what is happening in the urban areas, they are not there.  My understanding is VCTs are meant for youths who may not have access to universities and polytechnics. They play a pivotal role in shaping skills to the youths. We see those who graduate from there doing beneficial things. May the Hon. Minister find ways of ensuring that VCTs are also put in urban areas?

It is not a problem to establish those in the urban areas because it is easier to get areas for that, just like Primary and Secondary schools that are there. They can allocate space for VCTs. I think it can be easier that way. The Hon. Minister can do an experiment in cities like Harare, Bulawayo or Mutare. Before we pass the Vote, may the Hon. Minister allocate a Vote and ensure that at least two pilot projects can be carried out where they can partner with Primary and Secondary schools. How can the Hon. Minister assist us because there is high drug abuse in the urban areas yet youths can attend the VCTs and acquire trades? Otherwise they end up being engaged into violence and other bad things. Thank you.

HON. DR. KHUPE:  Thank you Madam Chair. VCTs education is critical as it emphasises on hands-on approach and practical skills. Could the Minister allocate more funds to vocational education or training centers? It will transform the livelihoods of learners and the livelihoods their communities. Earlier on I talked about wood technology. We have got a lot of timber in Lupane and Manicaland, which can be used to make furniture. Right now, we are importing furniture from India and Singapore, whereas if these youths or institutions were to be fully funded, our timber could be transformed into good furniture so that we do not import furniture from other countries. I thank you.

HON. MAKUMIRE:  Thank you Madam Speaker. The youths constitute more than 30% of the total population of this country. According to the census report 2022, there are more than 2. 2 million young people who are just idle. They are not in employment, they are not in education, they are not in any form of training and the projection was that in 2024, the number was expected to be 2. 4 million. Looking at Vote 21, sub-programme 2, which speaks to the issue of VCTs, I think this is the programme that will address the high level of idleness in this country. How can that be possible when these young people do not have the finance and the capacity to attend the VCTs?  There is need for support for these young people so that those who cannot afford the vocational training can access some grants to attend to the vocational training centres.

On the aspect of the infrastructure at the VCTs, most of the buildings are now old and dilapidated. They need to be rehabilitated. If you look at Matabeleland North Province, there are no VCTs. We cannot expect the young people from Matabeleland North Province to go to Masvingo for training. It does not make sense. If you look at the curriculum Madam Chair that is being offered at VCTs, it is archaic. Let us teach 21^st Century stuff – Artificial Intelligence (AI), courses and programmes that are competitive in this age…

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERRSON:  Hon. Makumire, I appreciate the zeal of emphasising. It is important and you are making important contributions, I had allowed you to express yourself but you are now getting into general debate. Just debate the way you started.

HON. MAKUMIRE:  Madam Chair, I have given an example of Matabeleland North because we want resources to be channeled to that province. I therefore, propose that on Programme 2 (2), the allocation should be reviewed from ZiG339 million to ZiG1. 5 billion. On the whole Vote, number 21, I am of the view that the allocation be increased to ZiG3 billion. Thank you. 

HON. CHIGUMBU: Thank you Madam Chairperson. I want to comment and give my input on National Youth Service. I think I would want to concur with other Hon. Members who have said let us reduce the figure and channel it to other …

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Chigumbu, you want to repeat what has already been said.

HON. CHIGUMBU: No, I am not repeating, I am just setting a background so that you understand what I am going to be contributing. The best way to teach a youth patriotism is how you treat them. You do not have to take them to a certain college and impart them with partisan programmes…

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Chigumbu, to begin with, youth are not taken there. I do not want us to venture into that debate. We are debating the allocation and please stick to that.

HON. CHIGUMBU: Thank you Madam Chairperson. My point is, let us focus on areas that would uplift our young people in a tangible manner, for instance our economy is no longer that formal and these young people need to be imparted certain skills that will allow them to earn a living out of whatever they would have been taught. So, I think whilst other Hon. Members have suggested around 100 billion to be added on vocation training centres, I would suggest that, why can we not add 400 billion around this area so that we cover –[HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Sorry, slip of the tongue; 400 million so that we cover all the areas in our different provinces like what we are having currently is that there are some areas that are under-served and new dividend is a moving target. If you miss this opportunity to impart and capacitate our young people, we will have a serious problem in the coming future. Thank you.

^*HON. THOMPSON: Thank you Madam Chairperson. I would like to thank the Hon. Minister for the money allocated to the youth vocational training centres. My request is, since the youth are the ones being affected a lot by drugs, we have very few rehabilitation centres. May these be increased so that the problem can be easily mitigated through those rehabilitation where they can get better facilities?

*HON. C. HLATYWAYO: Thank you Madam Chairperson. My opinion is, since the country works in collaboration with all other ministries, there is Ministry of Higher and Tertiary Education where there is strategic studies, that is the subject that should be teaching patriotism on children. Even at secondary education, there should be career guidance and other subjects that look into the culture and upbringing of the child. We expect children to concentrate on that.

At the youth service allocation, I feel that there should be vocational training centres. They must be different from how they are operating. They must specialise, for example in Chimanimani there is timber production but it is transported from Chimanimani to Glen-View to make furniture.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Hlatywayo, I am looking at this page and we agreed that we should debate figures. You are now doing general debate. Focus on the Vote and allocation.

^*HON. C. HLATYWAYO: I was explaining why that money must be increased because in Chimanimani, there would be education or skills to do with timber because it is found in the localities. When you are in Chiredzi, the products that are found there must be the ones they are trained to look into. So, we are saying, let us remove 90% from youth service to youth vocational training centres so that youth are empowered.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF M. NCUBE): Thank you for a robust debate on this Vote. On the skills development aspect, skills empowerment in terms of investment in vocational training centres, we have allocated a budget for that and we expect that this will be used appropriately to support our vocational training centres so that we can produce youth who are job ready or who get into entrepreneurship. The area of access to credit and empowerment in terms of entrepreneurship, we had already increased this budget by 72 600 000 and this is the budget for the youth bank. It is already in the figure and I offered this in the last debate when we debated. This amount has already been included. We should see an increased source base for the Youth Bank. While I am on the Youth bank as well, we are busy working with IPEC to make sure the bank is awarded prescribed assets status so that it can risk share with other pension funds, other investors in terms of providing credit to the youth. I am noticing that this process is taking time both for the Youth Bank and the Women’s Bank because this is new to these institutions. Pension funds are more adept at obtaining this prescribed asset status but these banks are new and we are working on it and we will get there. This will really go a long way in improving access to capital for the youth.

Likewise, as we did with the Women’s Bank, we want to extend Government guarantee to obviate the need for collateral for certain categories of borrowers.

Finally, on the drug and substance abuse issue which is a very important issue, the Government established a taskforce as shared by the Chairmanship of Minister of Defence, to spearhead a Government response in this area. This resulted in a sizeable budget being allocated in this and also in revamping drug and substance abuse centres that will hold our youth and recuperate. We have a budget already of 886 million that has been allocated under the Ministry of Labour and Social Welfare, so I think Hon. Members were looking for this budget under the Ministry of Youth but actually, it sits under the Ministry of Social Welfare because we treat this as a welfare issue. Also, that Ministry that then works with the Ministry of Youth jointly with the Ministry of Health as well because once things are of a medical nature, they have to consult with the Ministry of Health.  So there is a joint effort here in terms of that response.  Finally, when we introduced the additional excise duty on alcohol and then also on vaping, I think during our debate or rather during our consultation with pre-budget stage at ZITF, we said that perhaps that amount should be ring-fenced to support our response to the drug and substance abuse programme.  So we expect that alcohol levy and indeed the vaping levy to go towards that. 

         As far as this Vote is concerned, we have done the necessary adjustment for the youth bank but also for the drug and substance issue that is sitting in a separate ministry already and we have already approved that budget for the Ministry of Labour and Social Welfare.  I thank you.

         Vote 21 put and agreed to.

         On Vote 22 - Energy and Power Development - ZiG409 768 000. 

         HON. ENG. MHANGWA: Thank you Madam Speaker, I would want to start by thanking the Hon. Minister for giving an additional 150 million ZiG.  Today is a different day, for the second time in a month, the country is in darkness and the system has collapsed. The reason is we are in dire need of reinforcement of transmission lines.  So on programme 2 sub-programme 2.1, power supply management, there is dire need to treble if not go four times what has been given.  We can talk of any other sector but if we do not sort out the electricity issue, this year, it is something that we cannot defer any further.  There is need for Mutorashanga that was proposed by the Ministry that we also add another 100 megawatts, that is done by the Government and internally. Those two, I think will save us.

         *HON. CHIOTA: Thank you Hon. Chair for giving me this opportunity to debate, I would like to ask the Hon. Minister to increase allocation to the energy sector.  If you look at power outages, it is now too much.  Food is rotting because of lack of power.  The other problem that we have is that there is poor rainfall.  Kariba might not have water…. 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Member, you are going back to general debate that we did last week. 

         *HON. CHIOTA: I was saying the Hon. Minister should increase funding in the energy ministry so that we get solar system infrastructure.  We have plenty of sun, the transformers need to be increased and the poles for transmission need to be increased.  Transmission lines can also get stolen and there is need for replacement, so Ministry of Energy must be allocated more money so that we alleviate power cuts.

         HON. JERE: Madam Chair, if you look at all the sectors that we were looking at, energy is a key economic enabler.  Mines, we need a lot of energy there, for us it is our number 1 foreign currency earner but the miners are having a huge problem of power shortages.  If you go to health, they need power because someone can die in theatre because electricity is gone.  

         On agriculture Madam Chair, I know you are concerned about time but these are very critical issues, this is a key economic enabler unless if the Hon. Minister can tell us…

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon Jere, I am not particular about time, we all are - but I want you to avoid going in to a general debate as you are doing right now. I want you to make use of the allocations that were given to this particular ministry.

         HON. JERE: Thank you Madam Chair, it was going to help because the background is very key. My proposal was it is very difficult to say if this money can be increased by double because it does not even make sense, we need a lot of money in energy to make sure that we have got power across all the other sectors. 

         *HON. KANGAUSARU: Thank you Madam Chair. The programme on electrification must be reviewed, it must be allocated money because the majority of us do stay in rural areas.  Schools need electricity.  We do not have electricity in rural areas so, I suggest that the Vote be increased by 30% so that we can have a better life by 2030. I thank you.

         HON. MABVUDZI: If I was allowed to debate, I could have actually pointed out what happened in this House when actually I joined because of lack of power.  I want to focus on the issue of electricity distribution system in the high-density areas like Mbare, Highfield and all the other old suburbs. ZESA perennially, they put an argument that they cannot refurbish those systems because of lack of funds. Now, I want to propose to the Hon. Minister that he adds an extra billion to the amount that he has allocated to energy and that billion should be specifically focused on refurbishing the electricity supply systems in the high-density suburbs.

         *HON. CHIDZIVA:  Thank you so much. I have a small issue on the equipment, those gadgets which are used when we have faults.  Sometimes it takes days without rectifying problems, sometimes you will hear people saying you need to import a machine from outside the country. I am kindly suggesting that you review upwards the budget so that they purchase more machinery to an extent that when there is an electrical fault, they will rectify it in time.

         There is an issue to do with transformers in our places of residence, kindly avail more funds for these people to purchase more transformers because most of them are outdated.  They were purchased years back; we need your assistance in purchasing transformers.  Another problem is that people are purchasing cables using their own money of which they are supposed to be reimbursed by ZESA but is saying they do not have funds.  Can you please increase the allocation for the Vote so that ZESA can reimburse residents?  We do not want citizens to continue purchasing cables for themselves.  I am kindly asking the Hon. Minister to review the budget by 1 billion.  I thank you.

         *HON. MUNEMO: My contribution on the Vote for the Ministry of Energy as I look at the budget line it is insufficient. If you look into the damages that are happening to the powerlines in the rural areas. A lot of power cables are being destroyed and some of the wooden polls are damaged by termites. So, this budget line is too low. I would advise the Minister to increase the budget.

         Also, looking at those rural areas, the issue of continuously purchasing the wooden polls is not that practicable. It was good for the whole country if the budget could avail the budget line and resolve the problem of wooden polls once and for all. If we have those cement polls it could help us. We are wasting a lot of funds towards those wooden polls. Kindly avail more money to the budget so that we can have something durable.

         Following that we have the issue of schools, the problem which is stopping a lot of people from having computers in those rural areas is the issue of electricity. Those in rural and urban areas are quite different in terms of learning. If we have a Ministry like ICT or POTRAZ, when they want to give computers, they will first look into it whether the school has electricity or not and that deters them from availing computers. If they phase out those wooden polls and work on provision of concrete polls that will help us. If you avail those funds and we know it will be a once off thing, it will not affect these learners. I thank you.

         *HON. NYABANI: I am kindly asking the Minister to avail funds for the biogas so that we have an alternative source of electricity.

         *HON. KUKA: Everything that we do needs energy. The issue on electricity, we were actually luck if you look at what people have in their residential homes. People are actually paying for electricity in advance even if they do not have electricity. If we increase the budget, it will then be easy for the company to rectify any challenges. After that we have the issue to do with resources or transport for those engineers to attend to faults. If you look at it, all those workers are outsourcing vehicles to be able to attend to faults. I am kindly asking the Minister to look into it and add more to the budget.

*HON. C. HLATYWAYO: I would like to contribute on the issue to do with renewable energy which we get from solar. I would like to suggest that since we have electricity crisis, the Government can commit itself to have a programme on renewable energy focusing on solar. With climate change, water crisis in Kariba and coal crisis in Hwange, we are actually asking the Minister to add more funds on sub-programme 3 focusing on renewable energy. Mainly focusing on solar energy and our areas like Chipinge which are very hot, the sun is actually available every now and then so I am proposing that they be given an additional $500 million towards the solar project for us to have more electricity. I thank you.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. NCUBE): This Ministry is largely a regulatory ministry and does not undertake projects as such but creates an environment for projects to be undertaken by others, including ZESA. In fact, a bulk of what Hon. Members are raising is what ZESA should do and is what ZESA does.

ZESA, as you know, is involved in the generation of electricity, its transmission, distribution and collection of user charges which go to finance the company. That budget for ZESA is not in this budget of the Ministry. It is elsewhere. As you know ZESA is corporatised, has a board, a CEO and sits under Mutapa. I suggest to members that when the annual report for ZESA is tabled or the bid comes through under Mutapa, then a debate can be pursued to see if it is doing what it ought to be doing.

Coming back to the Ministry and its regulatory function, the Ministry has, working with Treasury, put in place policies to encourage independent power producers to invest in the power sector. Most of the independent power producers (IPPS) are investing in the solar sector and they requested three things to be able to invest in this sector. First, is an economic tariff and Government has increased the tariff, as you know to about $0,16c per kilowatt hour which is way above the level of profitability of $0,10c per kilowatt hour. There is easily an additional of $0,06c that they could play with in building margin and profitability.

Secondly, they requested a Government Guarantee on the Power Purchase Agreement such that if ZESA or ZETDC to be specific is unable to pay for the power, Treasury or Government should step in to pay for that power from the IPP provider. Finally, they also requested that they be a foreign currency access arrangement so that they can access foreign currency in order to service their loans abroad if they have borrowed money from abroad to invest locally or to invest in the inequity when they want to pay dividends. That is called the Government Implementation Agreement and that agreement is in place and it is functioning well. We continue to fine tune it.

That is what the Ministry of Energy is doing to create the right environment for IPPs to invest. Those of you who have been following some of the media developments can see that there are some coal power stations which are coming up from private investors. Mining companies as well are generating their own power through coal power stations as well as solar facilities, if you look at PPC which is an industrial company. Look at ZIMPLATS and Manhize, the iron and steel company is also looking at producing its own power. There is a lot that is happening in the economy regarding IPPs which the Ministry is stimulating. We have allocated an additional ZiG$150 million which is already included in this Vote so that the Ministry can play that role much more effectively, regulating and promoting the sector but also supporting the rural electrification programme as well. Thank you.

I now move that we revert to Vote Number 2 – [HON. MHANGWA: Though it is good to revert to Vote Number 2, can I object. This Vote cannot be concluded] –

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: No, we are still going to follow procedure – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – Order, Hon. Members. Before we revert Hon. Minister, Hon. Members the Hon. Minister responded, is there any objection?

         HON. ENG. MHANGWA:  Thank you Madam Chair.  Thank you Hon. Minister for your response. It is well noted and in the right direction.

         It is necessary support but not sufficient in the sense that in its strategic objective, the Ministry had included two specific issues that we brought in, one whose problems and symptoms we are experiencing today, the infrastructure.  If we bring in all this generation capacity to an incompetent transmission network, it will always collapse.  There is need for a huge injection that cannot be dealt with through tariff in our transmission network.  That needs urgent input, be it as an advance to the ministry or as an advance to ZESA. That is needed from the fiscus – that is the first part.

         The second part, they had also mentioned that inasmuch as we may depend on private initiatives, there is need for one Mutorashanga. The same ministry has already done feasibility studies for that.  There is need for a cash injection from the fiscus.  We may take away all other issues that are not directly linked to the fiscus but these two Hon Minister, deserve your attention. 

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  I thank Hon. Mhangwa for that input with passion and energy, thank you very much.  You must be the electrical engineer as excited about ZESA issues.  What he is raising Madam Chair is exactly what sits under ZESA, which is what I have tried to explain, that it is ZESA’s mandate to raise funding for these projects.  What it can do is to approach its parent ministry.  In fact, to tell the truth, the Ministry of Energy is no longer its parent ministry.  Its parent ministry is Mutapa, that is okay, they can still do that. 

We and Treasury can then sit around the table and see how best to support them, whether we are extending a guarantee or maybe if they are borrowing money from abroad or to structure the equity arrangement and so forth but it is a ZESA mandate rather than a direct ministry mandate because the ministry is a regulator.

         The points he is raising are very important but I would like to see how then ZESA plans to go about dealing with these projects so that we can make progress.  If there is a feeling that perhaps these again should be undertaken by IPPs and so forth, we can look into that to see if private investors would come in.

         In terms of the quality of the transmission infrastructure, that again is under ZESA.  If I can add something that maybe Hon. Mhangwa would like to know that I have seen that since we increased tariff for ZESA to 16 cents, we are seeing a lot of interest from private investors who want to partner ZESA, including for transmission.  They have actually signed an MOU with a foreign investor to invest in the transmission infrastructure and the additional generation capacity infrastructure.

         They also have a programme for improving the quality of collection of user charges for electricity.  In fact, I have been informed that in the next couple of months, their net metering programme will be fully in place and also the pre-payment programme for electricity will be fully in place because when you look at their accounts you find that there are a lot of defaulters in terms of payment for electricity. Just by dealing with the issue of defaulters, we will be able to raise enough revenue to do further investments in the sector.

         So these two projects he mentioned really should be under ZESA.  I would like to work with ZESA, to support them and to make sure that these are brought to finish.

         ^*HON. HAMAUSWA: Madam Chair, as we know, the Government is a major shareholder in ZESA.  If the |Government has a major shareholding, what is the impact in terms of revenue collection which is done by ZESA? 

         Secondly, in the Hon. Minister’s programme, it is written ‘Energy Supply and Security’.  I have a concern there on the issue to do with security Madam Chair.  In our constituencies like in Warren Park, citizens are going to six months without electricity because some of the ZESA cables will have been stolen. 

         I am kindly asking for the upward review of the budget so that those cables may be secured.  What is actually happening is, those parents who are facing  are being asked to purchase metals to secure those transformers and cables.

         ^*THE TEMPORAY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Hamauswa, what you are saying was once debated before, maybe you were not in.  You could have checked with the Hansard.  From where you started to speak, I would like to ask the Hon. Minister to respond but he once mentioned that before.  He said that ZESA is not under the Ministry of Energy and Power Development, it is a parastatal. 

         HON. DR. KHUPE: Hon. Minister, on Independent Power Producers, last time there was no due diligence done.  This resulted in contracts being given to people who do not have capacity to produce energy.  I hope and trust that going forward, you will make sure that there is due diligence so that we give contracts to people who are able to produce electricity. 

         The last time they were supposed to produce 6 000 megawatts, they did not produce a dime, so we would like to implore you so that there is due diligence.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you Madam Chair.  I appreciate the response from the Hon. Minister with regards to the issue of saying that the ministry is just a regulator and the transmission is under the office of ZESA itself which is now under Mutapa.

         However, if I refer him to page 386, there is a paragraph (e) which talks about energy supply and security. It goes on to talk about capital grants.  ZESA is also there in his National Budget Statement.  I do not know why he was introducing ZESA again in the budget yet it is under Mutapa.  I am just trying to find out if there is that inconsistency in the earlier report. I just wanted clarification, if the ministry is now only a regulator, why should we implode the issue of Kariba Dam rehabilitation, transmission, reinforcement, Hwange 7 and 8, ZERA legal and so forth in this National Budget Statement? I thank you.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTON (HON. PROF. NCUBE): Let me start with Hon. Madzivanyika’s contribution, we are a responsible Government and we always find it necessary to support these parastatals because they always end up requesting a Government guarantee or some form of support from Government.  So, we try to make provision for that and that is what we do, share that burden between the Ministry of Energy and Power Development and Treasury, this should be guaranteed.  We also have to give Treasury concurrence on whatever they are trying to do where we believe that it might have in future a fiscal implication in the form of maybe a hidden liability.  That is how we mention these things because we cannot abrogate on our duties as Government in making sure that energy is available even though we are using a parastatal. 

         Madam Chair, what we have here, that is a simple issue of compartmentalisation.  Here we are talking about the Ministry as a regulator but we have not included ZESA.  What I suggest we do, this also speaks to what the earlier speaker spoke about.  If you wanted to know about the revenues of ZESA through Mutapa, feel free as a Committee, as a Parliament to summon them, they can come and share with you what their state of affairs are, where they are with various projects and so forth.  This is what I suggest but today we are not discussing the ZESA situation.

         Hon. Chair, then Hon. Dr. Khupe raised a valid point about doing due diligence on these independent power producers.  She is correct, we are now doing thorough due diligence including a security vetting of these projects promoters to see if they are bona-fide and serious investors or not.  I can assure her that we are going to do all of these going forward, especially now with a much better tariff arrangement we expect the response to improve but also in line with the new Government implementation agreement that rests on the three pillars that I mentioned.  I thank you 

         Vote 22 put and agreed to.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  We are going to revert to Vote 2.

         Vote 2 – Parliament of Zimbabwe – ZiG2 253 361 000:

         HON. HWENDE:  Hon. Chair, I think we agreed that we will start with the Minister updating us on the changes that he is proposing. 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Hon. Hwende, granted.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTON (HON. PROF. NCUBE): I need a minute Hon. Chair – [AN HON. MEMBER:  He can take even five minutes] –

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Order, order.  May we have order in the House?

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. NCUBE):  Thank you Madam Chair.  Colleagues, we are debating Vote 2 of the Parliament of Zimbabwe.  We had a robust debate last week at the beginning of the debate for the Appropriation Bill on this Vote.  We agreed to suspend it, continue and here we are back onto it.

         I want to speak to some of the issues that Members raised so that we can make progress on those issues.  The first one was on the CDF because there are some arrears, so Members felt that there needs to be a budget to accommodate these CDF arrears.  So that is the first thing and I will come back to my budget proposal on that.  Secondly, there is the issue of tools of trade, laptops for staff and Parliamentarians.  This is something that I will seek to address.  Thirdly, it is on fuel that Members from time to time face pressures and need an additional budget for fuel and travel within their constituencies.  Some have bigger constituencies than others so that puts additional pressure on them to have resources to be able to afford fuel.  The fourth area is that we also received representation from key Committee Chairpersons who feel that there is need for additional motor vehicles.  What we did not do is in a sense approve what they were proposing but to make provision for it because we can see that it is an area of pressure and we need some back pocket within our budget to cater for additional motor vehicles.  The fifth area is that of domestic and foreign allowances for Committee Chairpersons and various Members who are involved outside and as they travel around need to be supported for these statutory meetings.  I am proposing an additional budget for that.  The sixth area is the long standing issue of constituency offices and top-up for CDF if the resources become less in value of US dollar terms initially budgeted.  We have also proposed something for this.

 Now let me go back and say that for the CDF and clearance of arrears, I am proposing an additional budget of ZiG378 million.  For tools of trade and office equipment for staff and MPs, I am proposing an additional ZiG50 million.  For MPs fuel requirements, I am proposing an additional ZiG72 million.  To support additional motor vehicle requirements which is a tool of trade, I am proposing an additional ZiG250 million.  For domestic and foreign allowances, I am proposing an additional ZiG50 million.  For the constituency offices and other top up requirements, I am proposing a back pocket for Parliament of ZiG200 million.  The total is ZiG1 billion.   Perhaps the way to read the numbers is as follows:  in the number that you see of ZiG2 253 000 361, already the initial ZiG500 million I had proposed is included in there.  So to get to the billion we needed an additional ZiG500 million on this figure and this is what I have just read out item by item totaling ZiG1 billion.  That is the proposal.

On staff remuneration, Treasury approved the proposal from Parliament to increase the salaries for Parliamentary staff to be 30% above those of the civil service.  So, currently for the same rank, Parliamentary staff earn 30% more than someone in the civil service.  The result of this is that Parliamentary staff earn about US$120 more than their equivalent colleagues in Government.

 There was an issue that was also raised regarding residential stands.  This is a matter that is under the realm of the Minister of Local Government and he is onto it.  He has been reporting regularly to the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders (CSRO) and this issue is in progress. He is working hard to make sure that land is made available.  Some Members have mentioned that they need loans to build or acquire houses but I felt that this is not something that we can just throw into this budget.  We need guidance from the CSRO so that we are clear of which scheme we will put in place, which institutions will be involved and I suspect that maybe we have to involve a mortgage institution.  There is need for clarity on how this will be set up.  The tenure of the loan and the interest rate, bearing in mind that the Parliamentary longevity is left with four years now.   We are running out of time but we need clarity.  What I will propose is that within the CSRO perhaps working through the office of the Clerk is, we do some proposals and put them together and try to sort this out, then at some point we report back to this august House to see if it will be acceptable.  I am not sure that we can just throw it onto the budget and suddenly make a decision.  It needs further thought.  I so submit Madam Chair.

         HON. HWENDE:  On a point of clarity Madam Chair.  I think first and foremost, I want to acknowledge and appreciate the concession made by the Minister.  I want to deal with two aspects only and I will start with the issue of residential stands. To be very honest that update that you gave, I heard it when I was sworn in the 9^th Parliament. That is exactly the same update that you gave on residential stands.  That was five years ago and at that time, we did not qualify because it was for the people who were already there from the 8^th Parliament.  It required money for the developer to complete the work but that update has not changed for people that were in the 8^th Parliament, 9^th Parliament and the 10^th Parliament.  I feel that the Hon. Minister with due respect, needs to take this seriously and appropriate money towards residential stands so that at least those in the 10^th Parliament, we can start with those ones.  Once we get residential stands for both Members and staff, we will have done a great deal in solving most of their problems.  Then the issue of the housing loans was raised in Bulawayo and you had ample time to consult the SROC.  We are not looking for something completely different from what we did for the 9^th Parliament.  What we are simply looking for is an increase on what you gave in the 9^th Parliament, specifically for purposes of assisting MPs with loans to build their houses.  You allocated US$40,000 last time and our request was for us to appropriate at least US$100,000.  It will use the same modalities that were used in the 9^th Parliament.  My suggestion Hon. Minister, to maintain the goodwill and the gesture that you showed today, I must accept that today you spoke like a real Minister with compassion for your MPs.  I want to suggest that we appropriate US$100,000 for MPs and US$40,000 for our staff.  Then we can go to the SROC and work out further modalities but we want a simplified system like that used for the 9^th Parliament.  I thank you.

         HON. TOGAREPI:  I also want to say thank you to the Minister for the flexibility and effort to ensure Parliament functions.  I want to talk about two issues; the issue related to staff of Parliament.  The Minister said he is going to give them 30% above what civil servants get.  This is already obtaining; they are already getting that.  It means that in all purposes, you have not increased anything.  You have given them what they have already been getting.  I think you need to give them something. 

         With regards to the issue raised by my brother Hwende regarding the housing allowance to assist Members to get accommodation – it is very noble.  I am not sure about the figures.  That may depend on the availability of resources.  I think it is critical that Members of Parliament (MPs) have a life of five years.  If they leave this place and go into destitution, it is not fair for what they do – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] – We are here with them.  We are maybe here until 4a.m.  No other Zimbabwean sacrifices to this level to ensure that every Zimbabwean get something out of the Budget.  This commitment of our people to represent the populace must also be considered. I know resources are scarce and you can sacrifice just one.  If there are those who are going to be in Parliament for multiple years, they must know that they get it once.  But they will get somewhere where they will stay and look after their family.  I think without discussing what we have discussed in private, I think for the comfort of the Hon. Members, you can find good language to make them very comfortable that in the pipeline you can assist.  I can assure that in the Ninth Parliament you did a very good proposal to His Excellency and His Excellency was very positive.  I will tell you without disclosing too much – the proposal that we had taken to His Excellency on the housing loans was very little.  We had agreed with the Minister here but His Excellency then said I think yes if you really want us to sacrifice for Members, why do we not move to this level and MPs got that – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –  

         Minister, if you take the request by Hon. Hwende and that which is being echoed in the applause that you are hearing.  Chairman of the Committee, do not mislead the Minister by taking him away from my debate.  Minister, just get it from me that I agree that if you were to take the request that we are giving you and taking it to the principle, I think you may find in your deep pocket something that can help Hon. Members and looking for the how part of it maybe your prerogative but let us find something to help Hon. Members get decent accommodation – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –

         +HON. NKOMO:  Thank you for the robust presentation on the Budget that the Minister presented to this august House.  Staff members work late hours doing Hansard duties and so forth to ensure that the Hansard is on the website.  Our request is that the Hon. Minister should also increase allowances for those who work late at Parliament.

         Above the 30% that has been increased, it is in the local currency.  We do not know whether you will also effect the 30% on the USD for staff     – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, can we allow the Hon. Minister to be heard in silence.

         HON. PROF. NCUBE:  Madam Chair, let me deal with the issue regarding the 30% top up salary for Parliamentary staff. This is an issue that Treasury has approved.  I was checking with my staff and it has been proved that it has not yet quite been implemented.  The figures I gave you is what will pan out.  They are notched higher than the rest of the civil service but of course we continue to review salaries if in future there is need to increase this top up portion, we will be able to look into it. 

         On the issue of the housing loan, look colleagues – when it was done in the previous Parliament, we had not budgeted for it but it was done.  When the time comes, it will be done – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] – I thank you.

         *HON. HAMAUSWA:  I would like to thank the Hon. Minister for addressing a lot of issues which ensures the continuation of Parliamentary work.  I have an issue to do with constituencies.  It was very important for constituency offices – to you Hon. Minister, those are very important.  Do we now have a certain model of how we can have a constituency office so that by the end of this terms, we will be working from our constituent offices? If we have such funds, my fear is that the funds may be diverted to something else.  How are we going to ensure that these funds are focused on our constituency offices? Do we have models of some houses that we are seeing, that is why I am asking what is the modality that is to be done?  I know it can be administrative but it has to be clear from the budget line to say these funds are reimbursed from the constituency offices.  We might agree to say they might be there but they end up not being there.

         I move on to the issue to do with staff. The staff is now operating here in Mashonaland West.  To the 30%, I understand that your Government has these rules here. 

         HON. TOGAREPI: On a point of order Madam Chairperson. I think the Hon. Member is debating on a crucial issue but when he says your Government, I think it is our Government. He is part of the Government.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Hamauswa, please can you reverse that statement?

HON. HAMAUSWA: My sincere apology, I withdraw that statement.  Indeed, it is our Government and we would want to bring to the attention of the Minister that our Parliament is now in Mashonaland West.  I do not think the 30% top-up or difference to the general civil servants will be enough because this will apply to those who are also at the same level as Parliament staff but who are working in Harare who are working in different provinces.  I was wondering if there could be another way of cushioning by way maybe of giving them some allowances that will then cover for the fact that they are now working outside Harare. Imagine Madam Chairperson, someone who stays in Chitungwiza and is working in Mashonaland West coming through Harare and then to Mashonaland West.  There is a need for some cushioning which can come in the form of even fuel coupons for the Parliament staff or other ways that can be given that are non-salary issues.  They can be facing difficulties in dealing with the 30% mark. 

On that one again, I also appeal to the Hon. Minister to consider seriously Members of Parliament who come from Harare. The Hon. Minister should be aware that those Hon. Members from Harare get one coupon per day and if this issue is not addressed by this budget, it will be a tragedy to Members of Parliament who represent Harare constituencies.  When you are coming from Harare, like myself I represent Warren Park which stretches to Mufakose.  You travel about 50km coming here 50km going back.  At the end of the week, you would have traveled 500km but you get six coupons when someone who travels 200km is given nine coupons.  There is a need to consider that. Then the other thing that needs to be covered again is that Hon. Members from Harare, it must be clear by the Minister that they should get their housing allowances.  They represent the country.  The other issue is Members of Parliament for Harare Province, there was an agreed position in the 9^th Parliament that they will get US$50 per sitting for housing because they use their accommodation when they are coming here.  That was not implemented.  We would want to see this resolution being implemented. We would want to see this agreed position being implemented through this budget because if it is not implemented, it also affects even the participation of Members of Parliament from Harare Province.

         As I conclude, I want to give a practical example Madam Chairperson, when there is a public hearing you would find that a Member of Parliament from Harare will get one coupon for the whole week while others get their normal allocation because they will only be given one for coming to board the bus. You will find that now, the participation of Members of Parliament in those public hearings will also be included. There is a need to compromise, there is a need to consider the issue of fuel for Members of Parliament from Harare and their housing allowance. 

HON. TOGAREPI: I am not doing this to pre-empt the Minister but I am only suggesting that the Minister was not there when we had our last CSRO. What Hon. Hamauswa is raising is very pertinent and critical that Members of Parliament must be treated the same and those who stay in Harare need to be looked after proportionally. Those from your side who sit in the CSRO will advise if they want those issues to be dealt with and in the budget, whatever the Administration proposed or requested from the Treasury including the US$50 housing allowance for those who stay in Harare.

There is also an increase in the fuel, if I am not wrong, I am not sure about the figure now on the fuel but it should be 100 litres for those who stay in Harare, that can be verified but we agreed on the fuel of US$50 for Members who stay in Harare. It was a two-hour debate until we agreed that those who stay in Harare must be looked after proportionally because they have got costs in their homes as they come to do Parliament business.

Before the Minister, I thought I should highlight that what Hon. Hamauswa has raised was agreed in this previous CSRO and Members should be getting that starting this month if nothing changed  –[HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.]-

         HON. HWENDE: I am sure you remember the issue of the payments for the current CDF. We raised it in Bulawayo and you promised us that the following week, it was going to be paid. Last week, there were also similar promises that it was going to be paid. When are you going to pay at least just for the first batch and then the second batch for everyone who has submitted?

         We have an issue of outstanding allowances. Parliament is closing soon and there was a promise that all the outstanding allowances would be paid last week by Friday. We have not yet received them. Lastly, in the 9^th Parliament, we had agreed on a USD…

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order Hon. Hwende! I believe we are dealing with the allocations. In terms of specifics especially when you pointed out issues to do with allowances, it is not included in this particular Vote. It is for the current budget. Therefore, you were out of order.

         HON. HWENDE: The understanding is that we have our Hon. Minister here and we are having a very good debate. Both sides are satisfied with the debates. After this, we will not meet the Hon. Minister.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Hwende, inasmuch as that is appreciated, let us follow the procedure. This is a not a sideline meeting but this is the official meeting where we are dealing with the budget for 2025. I want to remind you to stick to that and let us follow the procedure.

         HON. HWENDE: I am sure you will be happy if we go without our allowances but I think the Hon. Minister has heard me…

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Like I said, I appreciate that contribution but the Hon. Minister will respond to that as well. Let us stick to the 2025 Budget and follow procedure. I am not chairing so that we can have that. Well noted, but we need to follow the procedure.

         *HON. NYABANI: Thank you Madam Chair. I thought I was not going to be recognised and would leave without giving my contribution into this debate. In the 9^th Parliament, we discussed the issue to do with CDF for 2023 and then we did not get it and this one did not materialise as well. Is our budget inclusive of the 9^th Parliament or you said some of the things that happened in the past will not be considered? Citizens are now accusing me and suspecting that I might have spent or used the 2023/24/25 CDF funds. If you look at these Hon. Members in this august House on the issue to do with salaries, kindly adjust them upwards. I want to thank you for everything that you did. Thank you.

         *HON. MUTSEYAMI: Thank you Madam Speaker. I think the bigger part was presented by Hon. Nyabani. The Hon. Minister has announced what he said but my prayer is that CDF is one of the tangible things citizens look up to. Our CDF for 2025 budget for all the 210 constituencies, I think we have to be allocated USD100 000 per constituency. We kindly want the Hon. Minister as he does his presentation and that is my plea that his presentation must be inclusive to include USD100 000, not only to say I have added up ZiG350 million. The figurative value he announces and should be approved by this House should be addressing each constituency being allocated USD100 000 for the 2025 budget. I thank you.

         HON. DR. KHUPE: During the budget debate, I raised the issue of CDF so that it be extended to proportional representation MPs so that we have that money and we will be able to complement constituency MPs because it is not money which is being put to waste. It is money which is going to develop our districts and we are going to be able to achieve so many sustainable development – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections]-

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, Order Hon. Members! No contribution is better than the other. Allow Hon. Dr. Khupe to be heard in silence.

HON. DR. KHUPE: So, you do not want the CDF to be given to PR MPs? I thought they were clapping hands because they want the CDF to be extended to proportional representation MPs. We are going to achieve so many SDGs. I am saying this so that the Minister puts it at the back of his mind. I thank you.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order Hon. Members on my right!

*HON. MAKUMIRE: Thank you Madam Chair. A lot was said when we were debating CDF funds. It is my suggestion that the Minister from the USD100 000 which is being requested by Members of Parliament.  I kindly request that we have to disburse 70% in the form of USD. If we take all those funds in the form of ZiG, it will lead us to go to the black market to change money. For the staff of Parliament, kindly offer them housing allowances.

HON. PROF. NCUBE: Thank you Hon. Chair. I thank the Hon. Members for their contributions. The comment on the constituency office model and so forth, I think the Chief Whip dealt with that and on the issue of the staff of Parliament, we already have in place a transport arrangement and we are acquiring four more mini-buses and one large bus to take care of transportation. When it comes to meals, again we will be introducing a meals allowance for each staff member to cover that and it is set at USD15 per staff member.

The issue of Harare housing, that has been dealt with and I have nothing to add. As for when CDF will be paid, it will be paid at the end of this month of December. On the question about allowance arrears, they will also be paid end of this week. Hon. Nyabani asked about CDF for 2023, whether it will be included, it will not be included. Remember 2023 was the election year and we decided that let us hold that in abeyance and let us all go and campaign and we are all here in Parliament. So, we are only covering the 2024 arrears and then the 2025 allocation. Hon. Mutseyami wanted a precise figure on how much is being allocated to a line that is called CDF. He said 100,000 US dollars. That is correct.

Then coming to Hon. Dr. Khupe, proportional representation.

This is a tricky one. Let me say it is a tricky one, Hon. Dr. Kupe. I think we need further consideration on this one. Perhaps, again let us throw it to the chief whips. Let us discuss it in our CSRO, but let us not kill it. Let us discuss it and see where chewing this bone will end.

Then on Hon. Makumire on paying 70% of the CDF in USD, that is not a subject really for the budget as such. That is a payment modality when payment happens. So, we budget in ZiG. ZiG is acceptable. In fact, I hear ZiG is in short supply, Madam Chair. Surely if something is in short supply, it is well demanded and well appreciated. So, even the ZiG payment will do Hon. Makumire.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.  Thank you for all your concurrence on this Vote for the Parliament of Zimbabwe. Thank you.

HON. HAMAUSWA: Madam Speaker Ma'am, The Hon. Minister did not respond to my issues. I raised two issues to which I thought the Minister was going to respond.

How are we sure we are going to get our constituency offices, number one? Then number two was the issue of dealing with the 30% difference in the salaries for Parliament staff, where I said there is a way.

HON. DR. MUTODI: On a point of order, Madam Chair.  I think the contribution by Hon. Hamauswa is not an objection. He is now trying to do the Minister's job of administering the budget. The Chair is asking for a point of objection of which we said there is no point of objection.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Hamauswa clarified that this is not an objection. He was just requesting the Hon. Minister to respond to the two issues that he raised.

One is that of constituency offices. But I am not sure, the other one, the Hon.  Minister already responded pertaining to salaries for the staff of Parliament.

HON. TOGAREPI: Sorry Madam Speaker. I agree with Hon. Hamauswa. It was my omission because the Minister requested me to talk about the constituency offices. I think there is already a programme.  My only challenge, maybe not for the budget is, the whole thing is too slow, the offices are too overvalued, yet they are delivering very small offices. They are supposed to be USD60,000, a four-roomed house. I do not think the cost will go to 60,000. There are already offices that have been approved that are going to be built. I think some should have started, one in Mwenezi, I think about five should be starting now. That has been approved already and they are going to be built in the short term.

However, in this budget, there is already a provision for office accommodation for constituencies. We may want to motivate Parliament to prioritise those offices because there is a specific provision for the offices. Maybe what we may want to see from the Minister is to ensure that money for offices is released. If the Minister can just assure us because that is where we do work as Hon. Members. If we do not have those offices, we do work in our vehicles. So, we need that assurance that the money will be released.

 I know five which must be under construction now. Thank you.

HON. HAMAUSWA: Yes, I wanted to explain maybe because the Minister was consulting something when I raised the issue that the salaries for Parliament staff are 30% more than the general civil servants. My concern was if the Minister is having difficulties in dealing with that legal issue where the Treasury has approved a 30% mark-up, there can be other ways of cushioning Parliament staff by looking at the fact that they are now working in another province. They have to travel from Harare, where I was giving an example whereby someone would be traveling from Chitungwiza working here at Parliament, Mt. Hampden.  So, they can cushion them by way of some form of allowance, which would then deal with the issue of the legality of dealing with the 30%. So, they can find some ways of making sure that they support Parliament staff considering where they are working now.    

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Hon. Hamauswa, I am sure the Hon.  Minister raised two important issues.  The first one is that it had not been implemented and the second one is that they are going to procure mini-buses and full buses. Unless that is not enough, maybe the Hon. Minister can also add to that. Thank you.

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: I must say Hon. Chair, I appreciate Hon. Hamauswa's intervention. He is being creative. I like the creativity in how the 30% could be packaged and repackaged. I have listened carefully. I heard him well. I think he has more information than most of you. He knows. So, I will talk to him privately as well. Thank you Madam Chair.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Hon. Minister. Please, when you do, try to assist our members of staff so that they also work well in a more motivated manner. Thank you,

We are now going to go for dinner. We will go to our usual serving points and we are going to resume at 2045 hours.

         Business was suspended at 1943 hours and resumed at 2045hours.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (HON. MAUNGANIDZE): Order, may we have order in the House?

On Vote 23 – Information Communication Technology, Postal and Courier Services - ZWG641, 447, 000:

⁺HON. B. NDLOVU: Thank you Madam Chair, for the time you have accorded me to add my voice to this Vote.  My request is that; if only we can add 30% on the Vote of ICT.  The reason being that ICT is the backbone of all the Ministries. With the changes and the new developments that are there, I think it is prudent that we make use of the ICT equipment that are there rather than, for example, meeting physically, when we can meet virtually.

This will serve even on us having physical meetings.  For example, if you want to deliberate on road rehabilitation meetings, you can do that virtually, making use of the ICT equipment. This can also assist even the Hon. Minister when he is looking for development partners to partner with you for example, for farming. 

You need to make use of the equipment as well.  Even when it comes to mining, we need to make use of the ICT.  It is my request to the Hon. Minister of Finance, Economic Development and Investment Promotion that if there is a way, can we allocate enough funds to that Ministry?  I thank you.

^*HON. MUNEMO: I would like to thank the Hon. Minister for the budget allocated to ICT regardless that the amount is just a little bit low.

I am kindly requesting that he reviews it upwards.  We are losing a lot of funds in our porous boarder posts. People are smuggling goods into this country without paying the revenues.  It would be our plea that if we have introduced the latest technology so that we can curb all corruption and ensure that we get to raise more funds from revenues. Minister of ICT should be well funded so that we can raise enough revenue from border posts.

I will move on to submit on security.  These border posts are so porous to an extent that people are just entering anyhow.

HON. MUSHORIWA: Point of order.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: What is your point of order Hon. Member?

HON. MUSHORIWA: Hon. Chair, Hon. Members should be guided by the Blue Book. We should actually go item by item. This is not a general debate, we need to be focused.  I kindly ask the Hon. Chair to direct the debate.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Hon. Mushoriwa.  Hon. Munemo, you are reminded that this is not a general debate, can you speak to the budget.  Thank you.

^*HON. MUNEMO: Thank you Madam Chair.  What I am saying is; what will then make the Hon. Minister understand the reason why we need an increase in the budget. We do not follow what Hon. Mushoriwa says, there is no body who stops him when he is debating.

^*THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Honourable, may you kindly debate focusing on the budget.

^*HON. MUNEMO:  Which one? I would like also to thank you Hon. Chair. I have things like WiFi which is needed in these schools.  Children from Ruwa area lagging behind. If they do not increase the budget, it would then lead to them lagging behind more in their education.

I will also debate on funds – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, may Hon. Munemo be heard in silence?

^*HON. MUNEMO: I also want our Hon. Minister of ICT to get to where other countries are, countries like Zambia are getting WiFi for free.  If they are accorded enough budget, it means they will work wholeheartedly. 

I will focus on these borders which I mentioned before – there is no network in those border posts, sometimes they stop collecting revenues and taxes because there is no network. Without WiFi, they will not have access to the network system.  The machinery which they use in those areas reduces corruption. If we go digital, everything of ours will then curb corruption. 

I am kindly requesting for the Hon. Minister to raise the budget up to a billion. I am also asking for all the ministries to have a department which represent ICT.  I thank you.

         HON. CHIGUMBU:  Thank you Madam Chair.  I would like to thank the Hon. Minister for mentioning that one of his strategic priority areas for 2025 is the area of ICT.  I would like to suggest to the Hon. Minister that there are some programmes that he did not fund which fall under infrastructural development.  There was a lot of bidding  done by people bidding for various ministries.  I would want to highlight to you Hon. Minister that most of these issues that you are being asked to fund, you are being asked to fund them because we have not been fully utilising the ICTs.  If you are to fund ICT in the area of infrastructure development Hon. Minister, you will find out that you are going to cut a lot of funding that you are giving to many other ministries.  What ICT would do is to optimize operations in those particular ministries.  We have had people crying about road accidents, you need ICT Hon. Minister to address that.  We have had people crying about the issues of drought and food security, you need ICT Hon. Minister to address that.  You did not fund the issue of Government ERPs.  It is very important Hon. Minister to fund this area.  I think they had requested around 500 million and you did not fund.  This is very important Hon. Minister, I think you are facing challenges in terms of allocating the funds. I suggest we take some funds that have been allocated to certain ministries which are running their own ICT departments so that you give all the funds to the Ministry of ICT.  We will have sort of an integrated systems for the Government and it is going to give ministries advantages and it is also going to allow for the proper and effective utilisation of resources.

         I would also want to suggest that you fund public Wi-fi.  It is very important Hon. Minister, for instance we have been hearing Members of Parliament saying you need to fund education and staff.  We are still thinking in old school ways, we now need to modernise.  Let us not focus on brick and mortar, if you are to avail WiFi in many areas, it is going to be easy for the youth to access learning materials.  It is also going to be easy for the capacitation of even the teachers who are in remote areas. 

         I would also want to say Hon. Minister, we need to fund the Ministry of ICT so that we capacitate them in the area of knowledge management.  I want to emphasise on this point, I think our NDS 1 suggested that we want to move into a knowledge economy.  We cannot talk of a knowledge economy Hon. Chair if we ignore the ICT sector the way we are doing at the moment.  With knowledge economy, we are simply talking about sharing and the use of knowledge and information, to drive economic growth and innovation.  If our ICT sector is not fully funded, you will find that in 2025, you are also going to have headache to fund certain things that just now need virtualisation and that just now need ICT intervention. 

         Hon. Chair, my suggestion to the Hon. Minister is for him to kindly fund, increase the allocation that he has given to the Ministry of ICT with around 550 million ZiG.  I just effected the areas that you did fund in their submissions, here are the areas of public Wi-fi and also the area of integrating Government’s ERPs.  That is my submission Madam Chair.

         *HON. NYABANI: Thank you Madam Chair, I would like to speak on the ICT budget allocation. It is my prayer that you increase certain amount to this budget so that we can manufacture our own drones, laptops, et cetera and we do not continue importing from all those other countries.  We have students from areas like Masasa and HIT, all those are capable of manufacturing such things.  We have to reduce on importation as a nation. 

         *HON. MAKAZA:  Thank you Madam Chair.  I have a few sentiments that ICT’s budget be reviewed upwards because in rural areas where we come from, some of the areas do not have boosters at all. People do search for networks, be it in trees or in mountains and thieves do steal and then they go and hide in those areas without network.  It is my prayer that kindly add more funds to ICT so that we improve those areas.  I thank you. 

         HON. MAVHUDZI:  I am focusing on programme number two, Information Communication Technology Development and Promotion.   ICT received 0.23 of the National Budget yet OECD recommendations are that we should actually put 3.5% of the National Budget towards ICT.  If you are to develop into a digital economy by 2030, if you are to develop into a smart economy by 2030, it means we have to focus more on investing in ICT.  Furthermore, the Ministry also owes around 196 million ZiG in outstanding arrears and unfunded batches.  This means about 30% of the budget that has been allocated to ICT will be blown off before it is even implemented into the Ministry.  I was suggesting that the Minister could actually increase the budget for ICT by around ZiG 500 million.  This will enable them to cover the expenses and also spend the other amount towards development of ICT in the rural areas to bridge the digital divide – [HON. MEMBERS:  Hear, hear.] –

         HON. MAVUNGA:  I would like to just dive into programme number 2 which is Information Communication Technology, Development and Promotion.  I want to thank the Hon. Minister for what he has allocated so far.  However, the ZiG 428 000 000 to that programme is inadequate.  I concur with the other Hon. Members that the Minister should consider allocating a further ZiG500 000 000 towards that, the reason being that for Vision 2030 to be a reality, we want to have a digital economy.  A digital economy is centred around ICT, which is the Ministry of ICT.  The allocation that they got actually handicaps them from reaching that vision and ensuring the country becomes a digital economy by 2030. 

I further implore the Minister to fund a programme which he did not consider funding, which will ensure that no one and no place should be left behind when it comes to ICT.  I would implore the Minister to fund the Presidential Internet Scheme which is a community Wi-fi Scheme – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -   If that programme is funded Minister, we will see the inclusion of people not only in our rural areas, but even underprivileged people in our urban communities having access to the internet.  When they have access to the internet, it creates several opportunities for them in the field of entrepreneurship when it comes to ICT.  So, I implore you Minister to fund this programme so that everybody has internet access.  Therefore, the allocation of a further ZiG500 million will ensure that there is inclusivity when it comes to ICT.  Thank you.

         *HON. KANGAUSARU:  I am advocating for those people in rural areas to benefit from the ICT programme in all schools.  For those people in rural areas to catch up with the digital age where we are right now and strengthening digital literacy, especially to those women who are lagging behind, most of them are being left and need to be included.  We need to have inclusion for all those women and girl children to be able to learn and compete with those who are in urban areas. 

         We want to try to bridge the gap between those in rural areas and those in urban areas.  Those in Hurungwe and those in urban areas must not be left behind.  We do not want to have an ICT gap behind us.  I would recommend the Minister to review upwards the budget so that all our schools must have Wi-Fi available, which does not fluctuate to say today it is there but tomorrow it is not there. 

         We need to have them whenever they are being examined the same things as those in urban areas.  Let us kindly review our budget so that all the rural schools will have ICT and be good for all.  Thank you.

         HON. BAJILA:  I rise to add my view on the Vote for the Ministry of ICT and this is the second time I am putting my debate.  The website of the Parliament of Zimbabwe has been down for quite some time.  This speaks to the kind of resource infrastructure that the Ministry as it supports other departments of state needs.  Madam Chair, to be specific, I move an increase on the funding for programme 2 of the Ministry with specific emphasis on digital centres around the country that we need to be more visible in a number of places and be able to give more services to our people. Support for Government ICT platforms by the Ministry needs to increase.

 Just as I have given an example of the website of the Parliament of Zimbabwe which has not been functioning for quite some time including this very second. Furthermore, it will be important that an increment be added by the Minister concerning Health Information Systems, our moving and travelling. It must be easy for someone who has visited a clinic in Mudzi when they forget their cards but they travelled to Tsholotsho. Our digital systems must be able to report about that person and their condition without them having to try to trace somebody in Mudzi to send their medical records to Tsholotsho. In that regard, I propose an addition of ZiG900 million to Programme 2 of the Vote for the Ministry of ICT, Postal and Courier Services. I thank you Madam Chair.

HON. V. MOYO: Thank you very much Madam Chair. I think so much has been said. I will confine my debate to Programme 2. I am very much alive to the fact that the Hon. Minister knows that if the PFMS system sneezes, the entire Government operation will catch a cold. The obligations that they have to run that system for the year 2025, they run over ZiG 440 million. That is what has to be paid for ICT to continue supporting the PFMS system.

 We very much appreciate the extra ZiG150 million that has so far been given, bringing the total to about over ZiG791 million. However, I am looking at the obligations like I have said that we need ZiG440 million for the entire year to make sure that is funded so that every other Government department is functioning smoothly without any hiccups.

Secondly, I want to talk about the grants that are given to ZARNet right on the last page of the ICT Vote. ZARNet is a very strategic agency of Government that can help us as a Government to make sure that we reduce the cost of gadgets like laptops. If their grant is increased to ZiG100 million, I think it will help us even to assist our young people in terms of technical capacity. All that we need to do is to make sure that we buy kits for laptops and then the assembling of all these other gadgets, laptops and modems, if they were done here by that grant, one would have reduced the cost of these gadgets. Secondly, we would have improved our technical capacity as a country.

Lastly, the Vote on policy and administration, I think has been touched on, the issue of streamlining, all the ICT activities and programmes is very critical for standardisation having realised how strategic this sector is. I thank you.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  I thank Hon. Members for their contributions on this important Vote which seeks to accelerate the digitilisation of our economy.  This is an important pillar under the NDS1 and I agree with them that we really need to focus on it.  Today at Cabinet, we approved an Artificial Intelligence (AI) strategic framework which speaks to the need to accelerate our digitalisation agenda - also to research in the AI space and make sure that we harness all the knowledge out there for the betterment of our country.  I have listened to various areas that need to be attended to and need support. 

         To that end, I propose that we increase this Budget by ZiG100 000 000. 

         Vote 23 put and agreed to.

         On Vote 24 – National Housing and Social Amenities – ZiG696 163 000:

         HON. J. TSHUMA:  I will start by thanking the Hon. Minister for the money allocated to the Ministry.  However, I plead with him to increase for that Ministry especially in view of these settlements that we have around the country.  We have settlements like the Kasese, Cowdry Park, Mpumalanga in Hwange and so many other settlements even in Epworth and so on, that need to be regularised in order for the people to be granted title deeds.  These cannot come until certain services are done and they meet the standards that are required.  I want to plead with the Minister to further allocate another additional ZiG100 000 000 towards such things because it is very important to get these settlements to be done and title deeds given to the people. 

         The President promised people title deeds and it cannot happen until certain services are met, like sewer and water reticulation, the roads to those settlements.  Hon Minister, if you could be kind enough to add another ZiG100 000 000 towards such a project, it will be very useful to the people.  I thank you. 

*HON. P. ZHOU:  Thank you Madam Chair Ma’am.  I would like to thank the Minister for the amount that he has availed to this Ministry.  From what was being said by the previous speaker on the regularisation of irregular settlements and sanitisation of informal segments, if such things are not rectified, we will end up having those structures which are not in order and will risk having cholera and other diseases.

The President did such in Epworth.  As a country, we discovered that we have a lot of funds.  We need people to walk around and regularise in those areas.  I would like to give an example of Caledonia, Hatcliffe and Cowdry; all these areas need vehicles to go and monitor.  They need a lot of things including fuel and human resources.  We need an upward review especially on those tools of trade.  We need to prevent diseases. We need to try and prevent as much as possible before any harm happens to the nation.  I am kindly requesting for an additional budget line.  If we do not know that, we will never achieve our Vision 2030.  We need to increase the budget. I am kindly requesting that the Hon. Minister comes on and assist on 200 million - 100 on sanitisation and 100 on regularisation.

HON. MACHANGU:  I would like to thank the Minister for the allocation he gave to the Ministry of National Housing and Social Amenities.  However, I have got two issues that are bothering me as far as this allocation is concerned.  As such, I will advocate for an increase.  We have got some challenges in the rural areas where there was a programme called Hlalani Kuhle or Garikai where 300 houses have been serviced and people are staying in those houses. 

Secondly, there is need for provincial offices and provincial officers to go and work in their provinces relocating from Bulawayo.  However, the challenge that is there is, the families are expected to share a five roomed house being three, which is unbearable and improper in this time and age. 

I advocate for an increase for the construction of flats that will cater for the civil servants.  As it is now, they are reluctant to relocate to rural areas because of the challenge of housing and the reticulation of the system which is very bad.  I thank you. 

HON. MUNEMO: I would like to commend the Minister for putting more funds to some projects which are not yet finished.  However, we have some projects which were commenced 20 years ago and they are not yet finished.  We implore the Minister to put some more money for such projects.   Like the Kasese that has been referred to but people are still living under electricity pylons in Kariba.  It is better to finish off those projects.

We also have projects in Mtawatawa – the Ministry is constructing high rise flats; a pilot project to build flats in rural areas.    The project needs support.  I therefore implore the Minister of Finance to review by at least $400 000 000 to finish off this project by 2030.

HON. GANYIWA: I think the Minister may need to look into the budget especially in the area of housing within the rural areas and growth points. The budget is exhausted or consumed within the urban set up; big citizen towns forgetting the rural areas. We need more money for the reasons that include hiring of new technical personnel that are able to advise our people in the rural areas on a technical level. 

Currently, we have got Cyclone Chido and many other cyclones that have hit the rural areas.  The issue is lack of technical support when we are building houses especially in rural areas.  My proposal is that if funds are added to this Ministry, they will be able to also buy new equipment that can ease performance of their duties.

         The other area Madam Chair is the expansion of rural townships.  The houses that are found there in rural townships are not suitable for our civil servants who are staying there like teachers and Agritex Officers. Some are staying at a learning institution or campus because of accommodation shortages. I urge the Minister to look into that aspect and also put a ring-fenced portion towards the rural housing projects.

HON. PROF. NCUBE: Thank you Madam Chairperson again for the input from the Hon. Members. National Housing is critical, it is a pillar of our NDS 1 strategy and is one of those pillars where we automate progress as we drive towards Vision 2030. We have institutional Housing in our cantonment areas and we have housing outside those areas such as the Garikai/ Hlalani Kuhle housing that is unfinished for years in areas like Beitbridge and many other areas.

I concur that this budget ought to be topped up somewhat but I am running out of top-up, so I propose an increase of ZiG 70 000 000. I thank you.

HON. HAMAUSWA: Objection.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: What is your Objection Hon. Hamauswa?

HON. HAMAUSWA: My objection is, before we agree, I wanted to confirm from the Minister, is it true that we have some pilot projects for those flats in rural areas so that we can then invest in funds to build flats in rural areas?

HON. PROF. NCUBE: I thank you Hon. Member for that question. I cannot confirm that kind of information, I think let us leave it to the Minister responsible, he would know the exact details in terms of strategy. I think as Parliament, we recognise that we need to up that budget. There is work to do, more people need roofs under their heads but that specific detail I think only the Minister responsible for housing can answer adequately.

Vote 24 put and agreed to.

On Vote 25 - Veterans of the Liberation Struggle Affairs - ZiG807 284 000.

HON. TOGAREPI: Thank you Madam Speaker. Minister, I request that allocation be increased to at least ZiG1 500 000 000. My reason comes from the issue of various categories of veterans of the liberation struggle who have not been looked after in terms of compensation and processes that create their actual categories. I am talking about the cadres, recruits who have not been recognised under war veterans and also war collaborators who have been anticipating or expecting that the Government after the vetting process, would compensate them.

The ZiG800 000 000 will not be able to deal with these categories. They are keen to see the Government doing something serious and I think this budget would be ideal to deal with the issue of veterans of the liberation struggle.  This is constitutional, Section 23 and Section 84 implores the Government to do what is right for veterans of the liberation struggle. 

HON. CHIDUWA: I want to focus on the operationalisation of the War Veterans Fund.  Adding to the submission that has been made, the issue of the welfare of war veterans is a constitutional issue.  It is also captured under the National Development Strategy 1 where prominence is given to the empowerment of veterans of the liberation struggle.  In line with the provision under the NDF, the Government then sets up the War Veterans Holdings Company and that company has about six units.  The Veterans Agricultural Company, the Veterans Mining Company, the Veterans Tourism company, the Veterans Financial Services Company, the Veterans Health Services Company and the Veterans Property Development Company.  All these were put in place by the Government as a way of capacitating the war veterans as part of empowering the war veterans but at the time when the announcement was done, operationalisation on the ground was very weak and I would want to implore the Hon. Minister to say the capitalisation of Veterans Holding Fund is not much.  If you look at the budget specifically that item under capitalisation, there is ZiG38 000 000 and that is meant for the capitalisation of the six companies that are under the Veterans Investment Holdings Company.  I think given the outcry that is coming from the war veterans, we also feel that there is a need for us to deal with that outstanding issue.  I am proposing that for us to capatalise the Veterans Holdings Company, if we can increase the allocation from 38 million to a modest 50 million.

         *HON. MUTSEYAMI: Thank you Madam Chair. As we focus on these War Collaborators, they should be assisted since they were injured during the liberation struggle because they are not having enough treatment in those provincial hospitals. They have medication that they are prescribed to go and buy. As people who liberated this country their pension should be solved. The Hon. Minister must inject the funds to assist war collaborators.

         The second thing is we want the Hon. Minister to invest money into their provincial offices so that they can have vehicles to go and attend to war veterans’ affairs. We have a lot of challenges in that if one of the War Collaborators passes on, for them to process the funds to have a good send off, it will not come out well. This is simply because the provincial offices will not have vehicles and even the fuel because they do not have enough support. There should be support to assist in the logistics working with those war veterans in rural areas. The Hon. Minister has to work on that.

         Lastly, the Hon. Minister should make sure that there is a policy on the decent burial of those War Veterans especially on the quality of coffins which are used on them. We need standardised type of coffins which will ensure a good send off. Some of the funds will be disbursed after the burial. They should work on it. I thank you.

         HON. DR. MUTODI: On a point of Order Madam Chair. I think for the sake of progress, if we can stick to one ration for speakers may be a maximum of four per Vote such that we have more time to look at other Votes. This is because we allocate say 3:1 and that ration can be just for a Vote because each and every speaker is now repeating what has been said by others and this is not acceptable. Thank you.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (HON. MAUNGANIDZE): Order Hon. Dr. Mutodi. We are going to continue with debates but make sure you stick straight to the point and do not repeat for progress’s sake.

         HON. PINDUKA: Thank you Madam Chair. I rise in support of the budget allocation to the Ministry of Veterans of the Liberation Struggle. I am in support of the proposal that has been made by the Government Chief Whip Hon. Togarepi for at least ZiG1.5 billion or up to even ZiG2 billion because you will see that under programme 2, war veterans affairs, you will see that under welfare services, actually 6 395 are students who still have outstanding fees that needs to be paid of up to ZiG110 million.

So, from the ZiG709 million, it means if we let ZiG110 million which is outstanding for previous term school fees, I think the budget will still go down. If the proposed allocation has been increased up to ZIG1.5 or ZIG2 billion, it will also cater for even next year’s fees. According to the proposed budget, you will see that the 7 395 students need to have their fees paid in 2025.

The total amount is almost ZiG326 million and if subtracted from ZiG709 million, you will see that the budget for this Ministry will be like ZiG408 million. It is my humble submission that the Hon. Minister could also increase the allocation to this Ministry by at least ZiG1.5 billion or up to ZiG2 billion. I submit.

         HON. TIMBURWA: Thank you Madam Chair. I am rising on point number 2, economic empowerment of the War Veterans. Hon. Chiduwa mentioned about the veterans’ companies and there is specifically the agricultural company and the mining company. My plea was, if you look at point number 1, there is the issue of medication of the War Veterans, the education of their kids or their dependents. If we can ringfence an investment or an increment in the budget to make sure it goes towards their agricultural company and their mining company so that they can start generating revenue from there, that can help that particular Ministry to reinvest that money they depend on, which is health and the education of their dependents and even their pensions. This will bring a relief on the Treasury and the Minister. Thank you.

         HON. DR. KHUPE: Thank you Madam Chair. I would also like to add my voice in that the budget for the Ministry of War Veterans be increased. My reasons being that you find that those War Veterans who are better off in life, when they pass on, they are the ones who are given State assisted funerals whereas those ones who have got nothing in life end up being buried like paupers. I would like to propose that the remaining 30 000 war veterans be given State assisted funerals depending on their levels so that at least they have get decent burials and a decent send off. They fought for this country and therefore, they must be looked after even when they pass on. I thank you.

HON. MAONEKE: Thank you Madam Chair. I rise to support what my predecessors said because of the following reasons:

• Recognition of the sacrifice that they made. As a nation, we have got an obligation to show appreciation minding that some of them are facing mental health issues. So, increasing the budget would reflect a nation’s recognition of their sacrifices and contributions
• The other one is support for health care and re habilitations…

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order Hon. Maoneke. We need new points.

         HON. MAONEKE: Okay, thank you. May be social safety nets. Some War Veterans may struggle with reintegrating into civilian life and increase the funding and provide social safety nets such as pensions, housing assistance and employment training for their families or for themselves. Some of them are still able bodied and they may need new skills for them to be able to look after their families. We need to increase the budget.

         Last but not least, for commemoration and benefits, the funding may also be allocated for commemorative events and programmes to honour veterans and broader benefits to recognise their services. Thank you.

         *HON. MUDZINGWA: Thank you Madam Chair. I would like to add my voice to the Hon. Minister with regards to the budget allocated to the Department of War Veterans. All the 30 000 War Veterans, are sick. We visit hospitals every week and in those hospitals, they do not have medication. I am kindly requesting for additional value so that as the remaining War Veterans, we survive. Our children are not going to school and others now have two years of outstanding payments. Universities are now denying them. I have a child who did not go to school. He wrote his ‘O’ level and then they said War Veterans have an arrear. My child does not know whether she passed or not. It is quite touching. Kindly avail us funds Hon. Minister. I thank you.

         *THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: May you kindly debate on new points.

         *HON. ZVAIPA: Thank you so much Madam Chair.  I would like to add to this debate the issue to do with war veterans.  War Veterans must get an increase in their budget allocation. Why? Just imagine you Hon. Minister, from 1980, the country is now 44 years after the liberation struggle. As a country, we are continuously debating. We are operating in a reverse movement instead of going forward. We should have finished this thing way back.

We have those other war collaborators and those Chimbwidos from 1980. They are being promised that they will be given, they will be paid.  I am kindly requesting you the Hon. Minister, to say the Chimbwidos and the war veterans, all have to have a positive increase to their budget allocation.  You must add $40 to $50 billion so that everything goes well.

*HON. MHLANGA: I would like to add my voice focussing on the Minister of Finance regarding budgetary allocations. In the same vein, I am kindly asking you Hon. Minister, that whatever we say, if we say the war veterans' funds be increased, it is the amount of money which they are being given as compared to the current economic situation whereby we buy everything below our expectations. We cannot survive with the amount allocated to our Ministry.

Hon. Minister, I am requesting you to look into most of the war veterans' welfare. Most of them are dying out of poverty. If you do not have any other sources of income or issues to do with hospitals, there is no medication.   You simply go to the hospital and have everything prescribed to say go and buy the medication. 

However, I am not able to buy medication because the amount will be too little. So I am asking you Hon.  Minister, to look into the funds given to the war veterans. Those are the people who struggled for this country and up until now, they are struggling yet they are the very people who liberated this country.

For us to be here, before the liberation of this country, there was not going to be any black person to be appointed as a Member of Parliament.

*THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Mhlanga, may you avoid general debate and stick to the budget.

*HON. MHLANGA: Thank you Madam Chair. I will keep repeating to the Hon. Minister to say, please look into the amount for the war veterans. Kindly revise their payments. We know we have a little bit of them who are still existing. We need them to survive just like anyone else.

I think whenever you will be revising your budget and also the amount of input which was done by these Members here, you will discover that it is quite deserving.

*HON. CHIKWINYA: I would want to add to what other Members have said. They said that since 1980 up to date, our issues have not been looked into. In 1980 when we came from the liberation struggle, we were around 80,000 and now there are just 30,000 war veterans left. This shows that the rate at which the war veterans are perishing is very high. Currently, every week 25,000 to 30,000 ex-combatants are dying.

The effects of revolution have caught up with us. Our backs are painful. I am someone who wanted to put on high heels but I am failing to put on such shoes. I am trying to express my emotions so that you understand why we need money. The money that is on my payslip here is USD 120. Then I am given ZiG 800. So I want to thank the Lord because I am able but some of my colleagues are struggling.

From the 30,000 that are remaining, if they are not given the money for their provisions, when are they going to be assisted with provisions? We are even ashamed of mixing with our other colleagues because of the impoverishment that we are going through.

 Is it not possible to have other hospitals where we can be treated and other pharmacies where we can be given medication for free? Is there not a financial house that can give us loans for free? You are planning to construct companies for us but we are perishing. We will not be able to do that.  Our children are going to remain behind and it is good that they are going to benefit but may we also benefit whilst we are alive.

Maybe we can change the budget but what I can say is that in some countries like ours, the ex-combatants are healthy and what they were given is above what we are getting. Therefore, kindly look into the issues of the war veterans.

*THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Members, it seems as if repetition is now at its peak. May we try to get other new points that have not been said? Can we please look into the Blue Book and also contribute in line with what is in the Blue book? Even I can represent war veterans as well.

*HON. HWENDE:  Hon. Minister, my plea was that if we kindly add plus or minus 50 million to the Ministry of War Veterans. When we did our tours around the country, war veterans were trying to contribute funds so that they could go and exhume bodies and have a decent reburial of those war veterans who died in other countries.

 If we cannot take care of the existing ones, let us try to work hard and exhume all those war veterans who died in foreign countries because when we went out, those were the sentiments of the war veterans. I thank you.

*HON. MURWIRA:  Thank you Madam Chair. I would like to speak on the issue of war veterans. I know when we went around the country, a certain war veteran cried in front of us. She said I was renting. I cannot even afford the rentals. The amount of money that I am earning is too little, so I am kindly asking you Minister to review the amount, I think to two billion or two and half billion so that they can be assisted in paying their rentals or they can build their own houses. I thank you Madam Chair.

         HON. KAITANO:  Thank you, Madam Chair, just a slight diversion from what Hon. Hwende has said.  If we look in the Blue Book, there is a line item on Liberation War Heritage, about ZiG96.7 million has been allocated towards that. I wanted to specifically zero down to exhumations and repatriation.

We have been told of situations where the exhumators could not find or they do not have transport to be able to carry out their tasks. This issue of exhumations and repatriation is not just physical…

HON. NGULUVHE:  On a point of order Madam Chair. Let me assist the other Hon. Members.  Let us not mix the budget meant for Home Affairs with that meant for war veterans. Exhumations fall under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Cultural Heritage. So let us not mix the two.  Thank you.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you Hon. Nguluvhe.  You may proceed Hon. Kaitano.

HON. KAITANO:  Thank you Madam Chair, because it is in the Blue Book.  Hon. Nguluvhe needs to refer to the Blue Book on this page.  It is clearly articulated there.

Now, there is a serious challenge with transport to go and exhume the bodies of the deceased. There are serious issues with even taking some of the bodies from the mortuaries because when they are exhumed, some of the bodies are still not decomposed.  They are then put in mortuaries…

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI):  Hon. Chair, point of order! I think Hon. Nguluvhe has a point. This item was supposed to be passed under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Cultural Heritage.  If it appears under the war veterans - but I have not seen it, then it is a mistake.

Unless if you want to recommit it after we have finished the Ministry of Home Affairs and Cultural Heritage budget. But we cannot debate exhumations under war veterans because that is the function of the Minister of Home Affairs and Cultural Heritage.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Leader of Government Business. Hon. Kaitano, do you still have something to say? Not this point.

HON. KAITANO:  No further debate Madam Chair.

*HON. CHIDZIVA:  Thank you Madam Chair.  I would like to debate on the injuries or the sicknesses which were incurred during the liberation struggle. Everything that I am saying is coming directly from what happened. I would like you the Hon. Minister to look into the funds to assist those war veterans.

In the tours that we conducted, most of the war veterans had a lot of challenges from injuries that they incurred during the liberation struggle. I think the Hon. Minister has to review their budget upwards up to a billion. I thank you.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. NCUBE):  Thank you very much Madam Chair. Madam Chair, maybe three points.

The first one is that the Vote that we are debating is ZiG807 284 000.00 but what is in the dark is a lot bigger than that. What is not obvious to all.  In addition to the Vote that we are debating, there is an additional amount which goes as follows. There is an additional ZiG163 233 000.00. This is a constitutional appropriation under Chapter 2 of the Constitution which goes towards the welfare and economic empowerment.

There is a second amount which is the War Victims' Compensation of ZiG359 374 190.00. Number three, there is also the war veterans' pensions. Here we have allocated ZiG2 581 483 672.00.  Number four, there is Ex-Political Prisoners or Detainees. Here we have allocated ZiG437 840 170.00. So, if you look at these statutory or constitutional appropriations, they amount to ZiG3 541 931 032.00.

So, if you add this amount to the ZiG807 million we have been talking about-by the way, within the ZiG807 284 000.00, which is under the Vote, an amount of ZiG37 million has been allocated towards our investments. I will come back to the investments in a moment. So, if you add the statutory allocations plus what is in this Vote, the total is in ZiG4 349 215 000.00. That is quite a healthy allocation for war veterans. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -

Now, let me add one word on the investment activities. For me, this matter is happening too slowly because I was really directly involved in the creation of those companies. I spent a lot of time having discussions on how they should be created; how they should be capacitated and how they should be staffed.  Hon. Chiduwa explained.  He was still a Deputy Minister of Finance, Economic Development and Investment Promotion then. We created a whole group of companies, totally unprecedented, trust me. All under the War Veterans of the Liberation Fund.

So, we have got about six farms under that company, six farms. I do not know if any of them, if there is any tilling of these or any farming going on in any of these farms.  I do not know. We ought to have farming on those farms. There are still two provinces left, that is, Matabeleland South and Matabeleland North. All the other provinces have donated a farm each as per policy.  Some farming must happen. I am very disappointed.

Then two, we gave out 21 mining claims under that company Madam Chair - 21 mining claims. Is any mining happening? Has an investor been invited into any of those mining opportunities? I am not aware, maybe there is, and I am just not well-informed.

I am also aware that there are hunting concessions in Matetsi which are very lucrative. There are also cattle, a certain number of cattle. All those are assets under this group.  We also proposed that there be created a financial institution, including a War Veterans Memorial Hospital. Finally, we wanted to also create a War Veterans Property Company under that.  So, you can see this is a massive asset.  We put in a board. There is a board and I hope it is a functioning board. They ought to have appointed a Chief Executive Officer.

In addition to that, I argued successfully and the President allowed us to cede some of the shareholding in Kuvimba Mining Group to this fund. I know that they received a dividend of US$200 000.00 two years ago and I agreed that they could use that amount as a down payment for them to buy a building and have a head office. I have been deeply involved in this issue.  So, I am a little bit disappointed that there is no movement and we keep saying Government should add more money, Government should add more money. We have given out assets as per request.  The assets must be put to work. I submit.

HON. DR. KHUPE: On a point of order Madam Chair.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  What is your point of order, Hon. Khupe?

HON. DR. KHUPE:  Thank you. Death is not an easy thing to bear. Like I said earlier on, some of these war veterans are buried like paupers.  My request to the Hon. Minister is to just give them the bare minimum, state-assisted funerals so that they get decent burials.  Honestly speaking, they fought for this country - that is all I am asking for, a bare minimum State-assisted funerals. Thank you.

*HON. HWENDE:  I just want to say the Minister, I think spoke well. A lot of companies and a lot of empowerment but I think the biggest challenge is that a lot of things are being captured by the superiors. Everything is not …

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Order Hon. Hwende. This is not relevant to the Budget.

HON. HWENDE:  I am responding to the Minister. If you listened to what the Minister said, there is a lot of empowerment which we appreciate. There are a lot of things that have been done but he is justifying not releasing further funds because he is rightfully disappointed that from what they have given to the war veterans, nothing is happening. We are from the point of view that if these things are being held by superiors for the war veterans, at the end of the day, the ordinary war veteran is not benefiting. That is why we are saying, maybe we need to relook into the model but whilst we are doing so, people are perishing because of hunger. They need decent burials and so on. Let us find a solution that benefits ordinary war veterans whilst we are relooking at the model so that it can start working. Your vision is correct but we need right people to manage these assets you have transferred to the war veterans. That is our appeal. Like what Hon. Khupe is saying, just a bare minimum whilst you are looking for how we can improve the structure …

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Order Hon. Hwende. These are now administrative issues. You should address them to the Minister of War Veterans – [HON. HWENDE:  Vakomana nyaya dzema war veterans, isu takagara panapa tikaita zvinhu zvedu zvakanaka.] – You should address the issue to the Minister of War Veterans Hon. Hwende. Thank you.

HON. HWENDE:  It is okay.

Vote 25 put and agreed to.

HON. HAMAUSWA:  Madam Chair, I have an objection.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  What is your objection?

HON. HAMAUSWA:  Considering that the Hon. Minister of Finance has said that he is not aware of what is happening with the investment that they have established, I am proposing that may the Minister assure Hon. Members that the Minister of Finance is going to allocate resources to do a fact finding on what is happening with the investment so that the ZiG37 million which is given to investors…

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Hon. Hamauswa, that is for the Committee, not for the Minister.

HON. HAMAUSWA:  No, it is a request.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  It is an oversight role. Order Hon. Hamauswa. You can take your seat.

HON. TOGAREPI:  Madam Chair, I think as Hon. Members, we all want to see ourselves through with this Budget. If we have to repeat and talk about administrative issues, I think we might need somebody to help us understand what we are supposed to be doing now. I think we are overkilling areas of debate on an issue. Let us go straight. If you want to increase, we justify our increase maybe in a minute or two so that we move. I think we are overkilling issues.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

Vote 25 put and agreed to.

On Vote 26 - Tourism and Hospitality Industry - ZiG294 584 000:

HON. C. MOYO:  Thank you Madam Chair. This is a new Ministry and surely, there is need for aggressive and serious research and development within the Ministry and even extending of hiring consultancy to do research and development. Secondly, monitoring and evaluation. Surely, I propose an additional of ZiG50 million. To buttress, there is need for community-based tourism. Let us pour in the ZiG50 million so that something can happen, gastronomy, women in tourism as well as youth in tourism. I thank you Madam Chair.

HON. MUROMBEDZI:  Thank you Madam Chair. I would like to motivate my contribution towards Programme 2, on Tourism Development and Promotion. The money allocated towards Tourism Development and Promotion is not sufficient for the Ministry considering that the Ministry itself and its subsidiary departments are in a market where there are competitors. They are competing with neighbouring countries for the same products. We have got our own products that we need to market. Therefore, this money is not enough for Tourism Development and Promotion.

Also considering that locally, a lot of our people do not know our tourist facilities like the Mana Pools and all those places, they need more money to develop and promote those areas and also to add onto the cultural and heritage-based tourism that they are promoting. I am moving for the Minister to revise upwards the budget on the Ministry of Tourism Development. Just to also augment what the First Lady of this country is doing in gastronomy, it does not have to end in Victoria Falls. It has to cascade down to our communities. She is doing the work and it has to be carried all over the country. I am proposing that the Ministry gets an additional of ZiG50 million so that we augment the First Lady’s efforts and for the whole Ministry. Please, clap hands for the First Lady – [HON. MMBERS: Hear, hear.] – I so submit Madam Chair.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  Thank you Madam Chair. Again, I thank the Hon. Members for their contributions. This Ministry largely is a supervisory regulatory Ministry. It is a facilitator. Investment in the sector is done by the private sector. Just today, in Cabinet we approved the new policy to support tourism and hospitality which clearly spells out the role of the Ministry in such regulatory and such a promoter. The Ministry is not expected to have such investment, lodges or hotels and things like that. It is meant to facilitate the private sector to do this. I think the idea of supporting the pillar of just promoting tourism and certain hidden gems within it, there are so many hidden gems within our country. I therefore, propose that we add another ZiG30 million towards this Ministry.

Vote 26 put and agreed to.

On Vote 27 - Sports, Recreation, Arts and Culture - ZiG888 387 000:

HON. MAVHUNGA:  Thank you Madam Chair. I would like to thank the Hon. Minister for what he has allocated so far but I would like to draw his attention to Programme 2, which is Sports and Recreation Promotion and Development. The Minister had allocated ZiG274 million and I would implore him to allocate a further ZiG200 million, specifically under that programme. There is the renovation of the National Sports Stadium. I know the Ministry’s bid was ZiG300 million but only ZiG189 million was allocated. I would like to ask the Minister to allocate a further ZiG111 million so that we would see the completion of the National Sports Stadium.

Why do we want the National Sports Stadium to be completed Hon. Minister? Firstly, the image of the country, you do not need to be a rocket scientist to know that our country suffered a lot of damage when it came to the National Sports Stadium. The reason being we were now playing our home matches…

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Order Hon. Mavhunga. Your point has been noted. Do you still want to debate? Do you have another new point?

 HON. MAVHUNGA: Yes, Madam Chairperson. I am sorry if I am overkilling but sports tourism is a big revenue driver for the country. So imagine if all our games are played in the country, the stadium full with 60 000 people at USD3 each and international people coming into the country, that is a lot of dollars that we will be losing. So the Minister needs to put more money for the completion of the National Sports Stadium.

Also Programme 3, Arts and Culture, we have seen that it only funded 1 programme under that which is Murewa Cultural Centre, Mashonaland East Province. We know the Ministry of Sports hosts national events and they need money to pay entertainers and to organise events. I would implore the Minister to allocate a further 100 million towards Arts and Culture so that we can preserve our culture,  defend our heritage and protect our young people from other cultures that they get from social media and so forth. So we need to bring up Arts and Culture in the country so that they are not neglected but feel included and empowered. We implore you to allocate more money to the Ministry under Programme 2.

^*HON. CHAIMVURA:  Thank you Madam Chairperson. I would like to thank the Minister for the budget allocation focusing on sports. I am kindly requesting for an upward review of the budget so that people are kept busy in sports to reduce cases of drug and substance abuse.

^*HON. MATINENGA: Thank you Madam Chairperson. I would like to add to what was said and the figures which were mentioned by Hon. Members before. We kindly request for the Hon. Minister to increase the budget because we want to have such facilities in rural areas whereby we have people attending and working on such various sporting activities so that everyone would be free to exercise and reduce the risk of getting diseases. If the Minister increases the budget, it would assist in terms of sporting activities to each and everyone even that to do with Arts and Culture.

^*THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Matinenga, what you are saying has been said before by Hon. Chaimvura. Do you have anything else that you need to say?

^*HON. MATINENGA: Okay Madam Chairperson, I wanted to add on the issue of exercise and sporting for all.

HON. JERE: Thank you so much Madam Speaker. It actually boggles the mind because when the Ministry of Youth was separated from Sport, Arts and Recreation, all the assets remained with the Ministry of Youth. The Ministry of Sports, Arts Culture and Recreation does not have any tools of trade, any vehicles to use. Everything remained with the Ministry of Youth. For us to allocate 886 million to such a critical Ministry, I think it is something that the Minister needs to reconsider. At the moment, they do not have any office. This budget needs to be doubled because they are actually a new ministry. So giving them 886 million, we are saying we are not concerned about sport, recreation and cultural issues in this country. It is my humble request that the Minister reconsiders and doubles this budget because they do not have anything. They are restarting and that will help us, including the issues of National Sports Stadium that has been already been addressed. They need vehicles to go to the provinces which are very critical for grass roots for our football and cultural issues …

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order! Your point has been noted.

HON. JERE: Thank you Madam Speaker.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Members, you are reminded when I am here, I am not the Madam Speaker but the Madam Chair.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF M. NCUBE): Thank you Madam Chair. I thank the Hon. Members for their contributions. Sports is very important, May I also remind Hon. Members that we have a new policy now where we say the private sector is welcome to partner by the Government in revamping, upgrading and investment in our stadium? As what is happening with the National Sports Stadium, we have allocated budget and the private sector is partnering Government in doing so. Yes, I heard inputs like the Ministry does not even have an office, they have nowhere to operate from. I know that they have an office. I have been there. So I really think while I accept that passion is very important and also raising a motion to make sure that we support this area I accept that. 

Also I think for the first time, we recognise that the film industry is important and we have said through this budget we are also going to put in place certain incentives to support the film industry in terms of development of local content and make sure Zimbabwe is a destination for any shooting of international movies as was the case in the 80s. Some of you who were born way before the 80s, you remember movies such as cry freedom. For local content was Tiki, it was very popular and I used to watch that. For the first time Madam Chair, we are promoting that as well through this budget. These are new innovations that are important. 

Having said that on the issue of vehicles and mobility, I think the Ministry needs further support that and I will then propose that we add another 20 million.

Vote 27 put and agreed to.

On Vote 28 - Skills Audit and Development – ZiG 253 175 000:

HON. MAKUMIRE: Thank you Madam Chair. The amount of money which was allocated to Skills Audit and Development is too much. 25 million should be deducted and allocated to the War veterans and the other 25 million to the Ministry of Primary and Secondary Education.

         HON. MALINGANISO: Thank you Madam Chair, the Ministry of Skills Audit is also a new baby and I would implore the Hon. Minister to fund their quest for capitalisation to decentralise to all provinces. I so submit.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Thank you Madam Chair, I thank the Hon. Members for their comments including colourful contributions around taking away budget and redeploying it elsewhere virementing it that way.  Madam Chair, I have already increased this budget as I proposed during the debate that it will be increased by another ZiG100 million.  This has already been done so I have already taken action in response to the concerns that were raised earlier on and I believe that this budget is adequate. I thank you.

         Vote 28 put and agreed to.

         Vote 29 - Judicial Service Commission - ZiG1 284 000 629 put and agreed to.

         On Vote 30 - Public Service Commission - ZiG10 723 937 000:

         *HON. ENG. MHANGWA: I thank you Madam Chair. Public Service Commission caters for all the civil servants, it needs assistance on the salaries for teachers and the rest of the civil servants.  They must have salary increment even to double their salaries.  I think you can deduct some of the money from the Skills Audit. I thank you. 

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Thank you Madam Chair. In terms of this Vote, I believe we have done quite a bit here and it also turns out that part of the budget for any future salary increases and intervention is actually sitting in the unallocated reserves.  There is something in our back pocket to support any salary increases in a way it goes towards increasing this budget albeit on an ad hoc basis as when a situation arises.  I bring this budget as adequate. I thank you.

Vote 30 put and agreed to.

         Vote 31 - National Council of Chiefs - ZiG196 360 000 put and agreed to.

         Vote 32 - Zimbabwe Human Rights Commission - ZiG176 291 000 put and agreed to.

         Vote 33 - National Peace and Reconciliation Commission put and agreed to.

         On Vote 34 - National Prosecuting Authority - ZiG460 483 000:

         *HON. MALINGANISO:  Thank you Madam Chair, if you look at those prosecutors in court, those people right now, the courts are now using modern technologies like computers and other ICT gadgets.  They do not have these; I kindly ask you to increase the allocation so that they can have some modern tools of trade.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE) Madam Chair, we have tried hard to give a health budget towards this Vote of the NPA and we have supported them in terms of tools of trade in the past. I think we have done very well, if there are further requirements, I would rather we proceed by the use of Unallocated Reserve, rather than thinking through about just throwing budget at this Vote.  I think let us proceed.  I thank you.

         Vote 34 put and agreed to.

         On Vote 35 - Zimbabwe Anti-Corruption Commission - ZiG236 225 000:

         *HON. NYABANI: Thank you, on Programme 3 on prevention of corruption, I suggest that they be allocated more funds so that ZACC moves from point A to B.  ZACC must do a sensitisation in rural areas because some of the people are committing crimes without knowing.  They must not sensitise people in Harare only but they must also do so in rural areas.  Let us minimise crime rates so that we are not taken to courts.

         *HON. MANANZVA:  Thank you Madam Chair.  I suggest that the Hon. Minister increases more funds to ZACC because corruption is actually done by those people who have money.  If we send a poor person to go and arrest a rich person, we will be promoting corruption. I am kindly requesting the Hon. Minister to increase and review upwards the budget line for ZACC, I thank you.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): I thank you Chair and I thank the Hon. Members for their contributions. I believe we have really allocated all the we could at this Vote. Really, I have got no room left to maneuver at all. I have no back pocket left at least for doing this kind of gymnastics and so forth.   The pocket is dry, I thank you very much.

         Vote 35 put and agreed to.

         On Vote 36 - Zimbabwe Electoral Commission - ZiG467 362 000:

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you Madam Chair.  On page 525, there is a mention on a programme of ZEC, Programme 2, which talks about management of elections and referendums. An allocation of ZiG220 million was extended to ZEC.  I am trying to figure out if we have got any Referendum in 2025. If we have any election in 2025.  This amount is too much, can we take this amount ZiG100 million to Ministry of Energy to improve efficiency.

         HON. TOGAREPI: So, Madam Chair, I think that if the Minister does not have anything in his pocket and if I was going to pursuade him, maybe another ZiG30 million to ensure that should there be a referendum, the funds will be there.

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Madam Chair, I think that this Vote has been properly structured because that Programme 2 is a contingency programme.  There might be referendums or by-elections, we do not know what may happen.  When it happens, we will be under pressure to find the budget for it.  So we would rather make a buffer allocation as a contingency.  I ask that we pass it as it is.

         HON MADZIVANYIKA:  Madam Chair, the function of the unallocated reserve is to take care of those unforeseen contingencies as alluded to by the Hon. Minister.  Currently, I believe that the whole House understands that we will not be having any referendum because there is no Bill or projection of any elections in 2025.

HON. DR. MUTODI:  On a point of order, I think Hon. Madzivanyika is not a prophet to say there is not going to be a by-election or referendum.  So he is out of order.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Even if it is drought, no-one can tell that there will be a drought or a natural disaster in this country.  No-one is a prophet.  To that effect, that is why we put aside a fund called the Unallocated Reserve Fund. My issue is, we do not know what is going to happen in 2025, therefore, there is no reason for us to believe there might be elections or referendums yet we have urgent pressing issues at hand.

*HON. MAKUVIRE: Madam Chair, it is my view that we do not expect any elections this coming year unless the prohibition order in circulation calls for recalls of others out of this Parliament.  As of now, let us just work knowing that we do not have any elections.  Let us deduct ZiG50 million and allocate it to the energy sector. 

HON. C. HLATYWAYO:  Hon Chair, on Programme 2, there is an element of delimitation but we know this is done once every 10 years.  However, the Minister has budgeted for delimitation for 2025.  We do not know where this is going to happen, so we humbly ask the Minister to allocate that money to the Ministry of Energy.

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Thank you Mr. Chairman.  As we said earlier, this Vote is properly structured.  We have Programme 1 which is dealing with issues of governance and administration, which you need in any MDA or Commission.  Then we have got a Programme 2 that speaks to the mission of that entity.  The mission of ZEC is elections, referendums and so forth.  It is important to show that the Vote speaks to that mission even if the mission maybe a contingent event in the sense that I do not know whether by-elections will occur or not.  Neither do I know if there will be a referendum or not. So let the budget show that it speaks to those core tenets of what this Vote is about. I believe it is properly structured and we should accept the Vote before us. 

Vote 36 put and agreed to.

Vote 37 - Zimbabwe Gender Commission - ZiG177,290 000 put and agreed to.

On Vote 38 - Zimbabwe Lands Commission - ZiG194,198,000:

*HON. NYABANI:  The Lands Commission should be funded looking at issues to do with lands that have to be dealt with by this Commission and also the number of commissioners is too low.  I was suggesting that we should increase their budget to enable them to properly operate.  That is my plea that you increase their budget so that even land disputes are resolved timeously. 

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Hon. Nyabani, there is a certain number of commissioners set for each commission.  So you do not just wake up and say you want to increase the number.

Vote 38 put and agreed to.

Vote 39 - Zimbabwe Media Commission - ZiG144,193,000 put and agreed to.

On Vote 40 - Health Services Commission - ZiG164, 779,000:

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  I think this commission is very important, especially on the conditions of health workers and healthcare professionals.  In light of the amount allocated, I suggest that we increase their allocation by ZiG50 million.  I thank you.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Thank you very much for those comments Hon. Members. I believe that what we have allocated here is adequate. You will recall Hon. Chair when we were debating the budget of the main Ministry itself, we had to increase it already and the same arguments were advanced. So, really if those are the issues, then those issues have been taken care of. I believe that this is adequate. We should not increase it and besides, I have no more room for maneuver. I have nothing left in my very back pocket.

         Vote 40 put and agreed to.

         On Vote 41 – Attorney General’s Office - ZiG218 725 000.00

         HON. HWENDE: I want to request the Minister of Finance to perhaps allocate $50 million to this department because the issue of drafters since the Ninth Parliament, has affected the work of Parliament. A lot of Bills are not being drafted on time because the AG’s Office does not have enough drafters and so forth. They are unable to retain qualified drafters and if we do not have Bills at Parliament, it means that we cannot pass the number of Bills that the President wants Parliament to pass. So, since we are the ones who appropriate the money, we want to humbly request for the Minister of Finance to facilitate our work as Parliament. Thank you.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): I thank Hon. Hwende for raising this issue about drafters. It is something that we as Government have been seized with. First of all, we have proposed a new structure for the Office of the Attorney General to make it more effective so it can be equipped appropriately with the right department and divisions for them to discharge their duties effectively.

Secondly, on the issue of drafters, we have an MOU that we have signed so that we are capacitated as Government to train more drafters but also, we have a skills retention fund through the Public Service Commission that will support us in retaining some of these critical skills such as drafting.

HON. HWENDE: Minister, we appreciate what you are saying but the problem has been your inability or the inability of the AG’s Office to retain the staff. That is why we are saying maybe the staff retention funds that you have is not enough. For Parliament to function, we need qualified drafters that stay in the department so that we do not have the current situation that we have where we are unable to pass Bills because of drafters. I appreciate what you are saying but clearly there is a problem because if you look at the Mining Bill and a host of other Bills, the Minister of Justice is always here crying about this, unless when he gives that excuse, it is not a genuine one. For now, we are just appealing for you to increase their budget, maybe $50 million just to cater for this important issue.

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: Thank you Hon. Hwende for coming back to that issue of drafters. The effect of a new structure that we have approved as Government is that the drafters have been regraded, obviously upwards not downwards. That already means that their emoluments will be much improved in addition to adding more drafters through the skills development programme that has put this MOU in place. So, I believe that we are doing everything we can to give a higher stature to these drafters and hopefully improve our retention capacity as we do that. I thank you. 

Vote 41 put and agreed to.

House resumed.

Main Estimates of Expenditure reported with amendments.

Report adopted.

Bill ordered to be brought in by the Minister of Finance, Economic Development and Investment Promotion in accordance with the Main Estimates of Expenditure adopted by the House.

FIRST READING

APPROPRIATION (2025) BILL [H. B. 11, 2024]

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION presented the Appropriation (2025) Bill [H. B, 11, 2024].

Bill read the first time.

Bill referred to the Parliamentary Legal Committee.

ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER

NON-ADVERSE REPORT RECEIVED FROM THE PARLIAMENTARY LEGAL COMMITTEE        

THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Members, I have received a non-adverse report from the Parliamentary Legal Committee on the Finance (No. 2) Bill [H. B. 12, 2024] – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

         May we have order in the House Hon. Members. 

         HON. HAMAUSWA: On a point of order Madam Speaker.

         THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?

         ^*HON. HAMAUSWA: I am kindly requesting for an explanation on how it has happened.  When did this Committee meet?  If we look into our Hansard…

         THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Hamauswa, this is a Finance Bill not the Appropriation Bill. 

         HON. HAMAUSWA: My apology Madam Speaker Ma’am.

         ^*THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We forgive you because it is now late. Some of you are dosing sometimes. Thank you.

         What day for Second Reading Hon. Minister?

          THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Now Madam Speaker.

SECOND READING

FINANCE (No. 2) BILL [H. B. 12, 2024]

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Madam Speaker, the Bill seeks to give effect to the revenue and tax measures that are announced in the 2025 National Budget Statement delivered on the 28^th of November 2025. 

         The measures seek to provide support to the productive sectors to incentivise adoption of environmentally friendly technologies, to extend relief to tax payers in corporate, micro and small enterprises into the tax base as well as enhancing efficiency in tax administration thereby promoting tax payer compliance.

         In summary, the Bill provides for the following;

         Clause 1 – an appropriate title for the Bill.

         Clause 2 – payment of taxes in the currency of trade.

         Clause 3 – remittances to Government revenues to the exchequer, to make sure the remittances are done timeously.  This also includes an appropriate definition for the bank policy rate.

         Clauses 4 and 5 – pertain to the tax threshold and tax bands which had to be adjusted in line with movements in the exchange rates but also in line with the introduction of the ZiG.  This is with effect from 1 January, 2025. 

         Initially, there was a clause that pertains to provisions under the special economic zones tax regime.  These has been expunged or ought to be expunged from the Bill until we do further research and analysis on special economic zones.

         There is also Clauses 6, 17 and 25 – these pertain to withholding tax on panda winnings to the tune of 10% of withholding tax.  This is inline with other countries such as Zambia and Kenya. 

         Clause 7 – pertains to the payment of corporate social responsibility levy in the currency of trade.

         Clauses 8, 18 and 25 – treatment of mining royalties where we are proposing that they be treated the same way we treat any tax.  This gives some advantages to those paying mining royalties, advantages which they do not currently enjoy but the tax deductibility of royalties remains in place.

         Clauses 9 and 10 – pertain to a certain change we need to make, for instance, we still refer to the London inter-bank offer rate, the liable rate has been abandoned globally. We now refer to its new equivalent which is known as ‘Secure Overnight Financing Rate’ (SOFR).  This is in line with global best practice. 

         Clauses 13 and 14 - the merging sector, where again we propose that those who are in this sector ought to regularise their tax registration. They should comply by 1^st January 2025.  Again, here we are trying to improve the tax base making sure that this emerging sector also begins to contribute their fair share to the fiscus. 

         I will move on to some of the green taxes that we have proposed – before I do that, Clause 23 for example, pertains to the payment of income tax by building societies where we are now proposing that for the commercial banking aspect of their income, they ought to pay the normal income tax pertaining the corporates but the income arising from the building societies activities which is their core is still not subject to those kind of taxes.  It is exemption in the usual way. 

         Madam Speaker, on marketable securities in terms of Capital Gains, we were seeking to review the Capital Gains Withholding Tax to 1% on the gross value of the price at which the security is sold and is treated as the final tax.  This is with effect from 1 January, 2025.  This is in line with paragraph 330 to 633 in the national budget statement. 

         On the special capital gains tax in terms of mining rights, Madam Speaker, this Clause 27 seeks to exempt transactions, actions conducted prior to 31 December, 2023.  We have also introduced a provision in Clause 8 for VAT deferment for the energy sector.  This is in line with paragraph 637 and 640 in the statement.  This is with effect from 1 January, 2025, this is meant to stimulate the investment in the energy sector.  I now turn to the fast foods tax which is in Clause 29 where we proposed fast food tax rate of 1% of retail price. Again, the resources raised from this tax will be earmarked for support of the Ministry of Health. 

         We also propose in this Finance Bill the introduction of a 20% tax on disposable plastic carrier bags and other non-bio degradable bags as well.  This is meant again to promote the green activity as opposed to disposing these bags everywhere they can be quite a hazard to everything including our livestock. 

         Madam Speaker, there is an issue regarding tax payment dates where we feel that the date of remission of VAT, timeframe should be set at 15 days after collection of the tax.  This is with effect from 1 January, 2025.  I want to insist that in Clause 34 and 35 that those who are seeking tenders from Government, especially for contracts above USD25 000 should register for VAT and then we know that they are also good citizens of the country and deserve to be considered for some of the lucrative tenders offered by the Government. 

         What we are proposing in Clause 7, which refers to the lowering of the sugar content tax in cordial, this are the concentrated drinks as opposed to the ready to drink ones.  We have really responded to the plea by the private sector on this one.  They have been pretty persistent and we agree with them, therefore that amendment has been proposed.  Also, in Clause 44, I am just picking out some of the key areas Madam Speaker Ma’am where we are looking for an enhanced post-audit clearance process.  This is also designed to enhance our anti-smuggling programme to make sure that we deal with the smuggling and reduce its impact on our formal businesses.  It is de-industrialising our businesses. 

         Madam Speaker, I am just trying to pull out some of the key areas.  I believe that although I have given easily about 90% of what is in the Finance Bill, this adequately captures the thrust of the Bill which is basically to raise additional revenue to support the Appropriation Bill that we have just been debating.  Thank you very much but also it is designed to give incentives to such areas, the one area, for example, is the production of cars locally.  What we have done is we have imposed duties on completed buses and we are giving incentives to knockdown kits for assembly locally. 

         Also, we have introduced some green aspects to grow the economy, the issue of withholding tax on plastic bags, for example, but also promoting EV cars and charging points.  These are some of the areas that we believe will go a long way in showing that this budget is sensitive to building resilience, raising resources and supporting the recovery that is much needed in 2025.  I now move that the Bill be now read a second time. 

         HON. MUSHORIWA:  I want to start my debate from a hygienic point of view.  Madam Speaker, you appreciate that the Finance Bill is a special Bill which is actually different from other normal Bills. This is the reason why this august House when dealing with the Finance Bill, tries to make sure that we suspend the other procedures that we normally do for other Bills.  It specifically looks into revenue measures.  We look into our Zimbabwe Revenue Collection system but Madam Speaker, the Hon. Minister of Finance is very much aware and normally what he does is that every time he brings the budget, he lays before this august House the Appropriation Bill as well as the Finance Bill.  Madam Speaker, because the Finance Bill is work in progress, he normally lays before this august House the Departmental Draft that allows Members to at least get the feel of what the Hon. Minister would have said in his Budget Speech.  What we have discovered Madam Speaker and which I think is very concerning, if you check, the Departmental Draft had 15 pages, the Finance Bill that then was gazette had 46 pages.  The question Madam Speaker which you then need to ask is why there is this sudden difference.  You then realise that the Hon. Minister is continuously trying to use improper procedure and use the Finance Bill to do things that procedurally are not supposed to happen. If you look into the current Finance Bill - even when he spoke about the introduction of the Finance Bill, he did not even tell this august House that one of the things that he wants to do is to actually amend the Sovereign Wealth Fund through improper means and bring it into the Finance Bill as if it is a revenue generating measure, which it is not.  He also wants to make sure that he amends the Gold Trade Act and other Acts of Parliament. 

         Madam Speaker, this process should not happen.  The reason why Bills have to go through several stages is for transparency and accountability. The Sovereign Wealth Fund needs to go through public hearings and let the stakeholders have an input.  What is the current setup that we are seeing?  This is not the first time that we have seen the Sovereign Wealth Amendment coming into play. Last time, it was the Administration of Estates Bill that came here and behind it was a paragraph to repeal Section 22 of the Sovereign Wealth Fund. 

         We had the Finance Bill again coming to repeal the same section.  So, we have Section 20:22 of the Sovereign Wealth Fund which was repealed by two different Bills.  Right now, you then have the Hon. Minister of Finance taking it here in the Finance Bill and denying citizens of this country the opportunity to comment and discuss on the Sovereign Wealth Fund and on the Munhumutapa Fund.  That is not right.

         Secondly, it has to do with the Gold Trade Act.  We as Members of Parliament are ready and willing to engage the Minister on financial matters and on revenue generation measures as far as it affects the Zimbabwe Revenue Authority, customs and excise and all the other staff.  That is something that we need to do but we cannot condone the Hon. Minister to continue violating the procedure of this august House.  I would want the Hon. Minister to kindly ensure that these provisions that speak to these other Acts of Parliament are not condensed in this Finance Bill. 

         To his credit, he did not even encourage to mention them when he was talking about the Finance Bill.  Let me go to the Finance Bill.  I want to start again to say that the Hon. Minister says and he has been continuously saying this.  He says that this amount that I want to...

         HON. TOGAREPI:  A point of order Madam Chair. 

         THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  What is your point of order Government Chief Whip?

         HON. TOGAREPI:  I hear the debate by the Hon. Member but I am concerned when he says we Hon. Members.  I think it is not like the views that he is raising are acceptable to everybody.  We may have our own views.  We may be accepting the approach the Minister is using but according to his views, if the Member feels there are certain areas where the Minister could have done it, he should represent himself and a few that stand with him.  Maybe he should not appear like everybody will agree with what he is saying - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -

         THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I am sure Hon. Mushoriwa has taken note of that.  Please Hon. Mushoriwa may you proceed.

         HON. MUSHORIWA:  Thank you.  The Government Chief Whip also needs to understand here and he got the chance to debate - [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -

         THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Hon. Mushoriwa, just proceed with your debate.

         HON. MUSHORIWA:  Madam Speaker, the Hon. Minister of Finance has come before this august House before.  He has done so today.  He is on record of telling this august House that Hon. Minister intends to ring-fence certain taxes for certain purposes.  There are several taxes that I can mention.  The question of the IMMT, the question of the sugar tax, the question of the airtime tax and a lot more. 

The Hon. Minister when he presented the Budget, he does not tell this august House how much has been ring-fenced, what has been used on those ring-fenced taxes. Without even telling the august House, he then comes again today and says that this amount will be ring-fenced.  I do not think it is wrong for the Hon. Minister to simply say that we need to raise money for the Consolidated Revenue Fund rather than to then create an impression to the general public that this money is being earmarked for something that will not happen. 

         THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Hon. Mushoriwa, before you proceed, you are not supposed to raise the issues which are before the courts here in Parliament for debates.

         HON. MUSHORIWA:  Sorry Madam Chair, which issues?

         THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The issues which you were raising against the Minister.

         HON. MUSHORIWA: But Madam Chair, when he introduced the Bill, he told us that he wants to ring-fence.  I am also not sure whether we are supposed to respond to what the Hon. Minister has said.  That is what we are doing - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjection.] -

         When you look at the revenue measures, I want to agree that the Hon. Minister wants to get as much money for the Government as possible. I understand the demands that the Hon. Minister faces but I think that some of the measures that you propose may not make it easier even for the Zimbabwe Revenue Authority to raise money and may have unintended consequences.

The first issue is the question of saying that the banks will now need to make sure that they transfer the money that they collect on behalf of the Government and reduce the period from 48 hours to 24 hours. I think  the pressure that will be exerted on banks will, in the long term, stifle even the revenue collection measures. I do not believe that one more day would have a negative impact.

Apart from that Madam Speaker, we already have a provision. If a bank fails to transfer the money, then it is charged interest at a high rate. To me, this one does not add much value. The second issue that I think the Hon. Minister will need to consider is how the Hon. Minister proposes to say that, we now need to make sure that VAT collected by traders and other stakeholders should be remitted.

The period is now being said to be reduced from 30 days to 15 days.  The challenge is that as Government we need the money but we also need to be cognisant of the operations of the industry. We have got industries that give credit and monies are payable after a certain period. The second issue which is also tied to that is, we also want to ensure that industry and commerce will continue to operate and reduce from 30 to 15 days. I think that it is a rapid reduction which I believe that if the Hon. Minister…

THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are left with 5 minutes, Hon. Mushoriwa- [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-

HON. MUSHORIWA: If the Hon. Minister had proposed to say maybe we move from 30 days to 20 days, it would make some sense and would help the business. There is also an issue that I think the Hon. Minister needs to take cognisance of. The Hon. Minister in terms of his taxation policies, then set out that a person who earns 100 a month is not supposed to pay taxes.

If you look at the way the budget was crafted, the Hon. Minister used the rate of 1:28 and then he says that anyone who is earning more than 33 600 per annum is exempted from tax or ZiG2800 per month. We are aware having gone through these budget figures that the underlining rate of exchange is around 36 and I will be in a position to then say that the Hon. Minister…

THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER:  May we have order in the House. May we have order please – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] -

HON. MUSHORIWA: The Hon. Minister will need to revise this figure upwards. Then the last issue because of time, I actually think that the Hon. Minister, if you read this Bill, it gives ZIMRA the right to even close shops for non-compliance.  Whilst this is a good thing in terms of wanting to raise revenue, the consequence of doing such a thing will result in more businesses getting into the informal and at the end of the day, the Treasury not getting the needed resources.  I think it is crucial that whenever we do revenue generation measures, they should then see that there is a systematic manner.  We do not want to have a situation where it will be difficult for ZIMRA to do or something that will even enhance corruption amongst ZIMRA officers in trying to ensure that they impose this.

I would be engaging the Hon. Minister during the Committee Stage to make sure that certain things that have been proposed need variation.  Otherwise we fully feel for the Minister that there is need to raise money but the mechanism for raising the money, I think we need to make sure that we put our heads together so that in the process of raising money, we are not destroying the goose that lays the golden egg.  I thank you Madam Speaker – [HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Kana musisade, let us adjourn totanga mangwana.]  - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: May we have order in the House please!

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, LEGAL AND PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (HON. Z. ZIYAMBI):  I just want to make a clarification in terms of our money Bills.  Hon. Mushoriwa has been in this House for a very long time and he suffers from nostalgia.  The previous Constitution indicated that a money Bill solely provides for the things that he was indicating.  The drafters of the 2013 Constitution and I believe Hon. Mushoriwa was one of them, removed that.  The interpretation that he is giving belongs to the previous Constitution and not the current Constitution. The current Constitution does not have a word that a money Bill solely provides for this.  That aside, this is a matter before the courts which I believe Hon. Mushoriwa and other Hon. Members can hold their horses if they believe that as the Executive, what we are doing is wrong, the courts will be able to pronounce but for now, we have that interpretation which is according to the Constitution.  You can look at it within the schedule, it is well provided for.

Secondly, public hearings are not mandatory in the Constitution.  Section 141 is clear that you do them if it is appropriate or applicable.  Those words were not put at random.  They have a meaning.  To say that it is a must, is not provided for in the Constitution.  I just want us to know that when we are debating, we must be guided by what the Constitution is also saying and what we are abiding by.  There is nothing that the Minister or the Executive has done that is outside the confines of the law.  Should Hon. Mushoriwa feel that our interpretation is wrong, I think you can also join in the court case, like you indicated rightly that this is a case before the courts and we cannot debate.  It does not stop us from proceeding with the Bill as it is.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  I am not a lawyer by profession and I have never studied law.  I may want guidance as to when something is before the courts and there is a dispute, should we as Parliament continue on that trajectory or we wait for the finalisation of the case so that we start on a new page? 

HON. Z. ZIYAMBI:  What we cannot do is debate and give a verdict but the courts have not pronounced themselves.  We are not barred to act in a manner that we have been acting.

*HON. MAKUMIRE:  On a point of privilege, I believe that the majority of Hon. Members have fallen asleep.  May you kindly allow that we adjourn today and then we will sit again tomorrow?   As it stands, we can listen to the noise from the bar from the corner that side.

*THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER:  If you are falling asleep, you can go out and stretch then come back.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  I will start on Clause 4 which provides for the tax brackets for income tax arising out of employment.  The tax brackets which are denominated in our local currency are prone to the issue of currency volatility.  We have just witnessed on the 27^th of September 2024, the depreciation of the local currency by 43%.  Employees were not compensated.  What it means is that with the bracket that was prevailing at that time, the workers were prejudiced.  Those who were under low income groups or bracket were put into higher groups as a result of the currency depreciation.

My suggestion is, let us make sure that the income tax brackets, given on 4 (b) (ii) must put a clause to the effect that these tax brackets change or the minimum non-taxable income should move or the free tax threshold should move with the exchange rate index to the USD. 

I move to the second one.  The issue of tax on pandas.  It is my suggestion that levying a withholding tax of 10% on winnings actually hits hard on the poor people of our society.  My suggestion is to put a cap to the effect that at least we tax 10% withholding tax on amounts exceeding for example USD500 so that we protect and cushion the vulnerable of our society. 

Let me turn to the issue of royalties being denied - the Minister proposed that they are not supposed to be allowed as a deduction by the repeal of Section 15 (2) (f) (3) of the Income Tax Act. I therefore move that there is need for consideration to see what is given by Section 16 (1) (d) which is the prohibited deductions.  There appears to be a clash.  So, even if you repeal, can you cross-check on that one?  I support the idea of having royalties not allowed as a deduction because they must be commensurate to all other tax regimes but also cross-check with 61 (d) to see whether there is that inconsistency.

         There is this idea of fast food tax, basically I do not agree with that tax. Assuming that I buy my shawarma and a drink with sugar content.  What it means is that as an employee, I would have been taxed on my income from employment.  I went to the shop to buy a shawarma and a drink, that shawarma will be charged sugar tax again.  On that drink I am being charged tax on the shawarma then sugar content tax on the drink.  I think the taxation is too much on the poor of our society.  I was worried about obesity when we introduced this tax.  I was of the opinion that the Hon. Minister should provide for probably education on health style living as well as providing for gym facilities so that people would exercise more to prevent obesity than to charge them tax for food.

         On the same note Madam Speaker, there is a provision that says the definition of fast foods is not exhaustive.  It says fast foods means, shawarma, french fries, doughnuts, chicken and any other food that is substantially similar.  I think if we leave our law like that, it is not sustainable because any food made out of flour will eventually be subject to fast food tax which we do not want.  The Hon. Minister must be very clear on the definition.  The definition must not be ambiguous.  It must be very clear as to which items are subject to fast food tax.

There is a surcharge of 1% on the fast food in the Finance Bill that we received.  If you look at the 2025 National Budget statement, the surcharge was 0.5%.  I wanted to see the inconsistencies because my assumption is that the Finance Bill is taken from submissions in the National Budget statement.

         Let me talk about the plastic carrier bag tax.  This is another cause for concern, someone who is importing carrier bags or material to produce carrier bags, that person is also subject to a 20% plastic carrier bag tax. On importation, will that person come to Zimbabwe when he sells the plastic bag?  He is again subject to the same 20% plastic carrier bag tax.  I think we will be killing business in the short term. It is also tantamount to double taxation, tax on importation and also tax when you are selling the goods.  It was my humble submission that can we provide for recycling, say if you are a producer of plastic, bags can we allow you to provide for recycling plants to ensure that all the pollution is well catered for than to introduce the tax? Better still, give a directive to this country that we no longer want plastic bags, can we just use the biodegradable packages?

         I am moving to Clause 10, where the Minister tried to jettison the idea of using LIBOR the London International Overnight Rate bringing what actually is called the SOFR, which is the secure overnight  financing rate.  I wanted to know the rationale behind that variation and why has he chosen that trajectory.  Let me move on to the issue of Amendment of Section 25 (c) of the Income Tax Act which talks about the issue of civil penalties for non-submission of tax returns.  The fee was pegged at US$10 per day for failure to submit the return and to a maximum of 90 days.  What it means is that if you do not submit returns for 30 days you are liable to US$ 900 per tax rate. Assuming that you have four taxes, you will pay US$900 by 4 which is US$3 600. My issue Madam Speaker is, does this encourage compliance? We have seen it before where ZIMRA ended up introducing tax amnesty to say our taxpayers have failed to deal with the debt question, can we at least introduce an amnesty to them and it happened twice?

Secondly, ZIMRA has been given the autonomy under the same provision to waiver those penalties in cases where they feel that non-submission was not a result of gross negligence. I am saying why are we giving ourselves double work? Can we improve or work on measures to improve compliance rather than introducing penalties? I do not think it is sustainable Madam Speaker.

Let me move on to the issue of the deeming of cooperate income tax to certain industries that have been identified by the Hon. Minister. He has indicated that the following examples of companies or business types are supposed to automatically register for income tax. If they do not do so, they are entitled to pay a deemed quarterly income tax of USD 9000 for steppers dealers USD15 000 for car dealers, USD9 000 for grocery and kitchen and lodges USD 5 000. Have you seen Hon. Speaker that these industries are so difficult to enforce compliance to the effect that once you put his amount for example USD 5 000 the owner of the lodge will disappear and you will see a building?

We have seen this Hon. Speaker, it is difficult to put these and they are more to have been deemed, I think they are too excessive. Can we try to ensure that we encourage formality? Let us incentivise them to formality than putting these heinous figures that will threaten them. The most feared agent of Government in this country is the Zimbabwe Revenue Authority. This is the general sentiment, people think that once you register with ZIMRA, you will not get off the hook. The day you make a loss they will come to say we would want to audit you, why did you make a loss and the process continues? The vicious cycle continues.

With the nature of these businesses Hon. Speaker, these people can easily collect their stock and leave when they are faced with difficult circumstances. Have you ever considered the tuck shops in Harare? They are not as big as we think. If circumstances force them, they might load their stuff in a simple T-35 and vanish and they are nowhere to be found or they will be operating in Chiredzi or any other place. I do not know how best we can deal with this situation but I think the practicability of administering this tax might be so difficult.

There is the issue of non-residence shareholder tax. The sentiment of the crafting of the statement appears there is a conflict. If we look at the crafting of the statement, it talks of Section 16, it says as allowed by Section 16 but it does not talk about allowable deductions, it talks of prohibited deductions. I think the crafting of that amendment needs to be revisited. The same applies to the residents shareholder stakes.

         I move on to Clause 17, this is now the amendment of the income tax, the same as that one because the tax on vetting panders was amended with effect to the Finance Act. On Section 17, it is now amended with effect to the Income Tax Act. I have made a submission and the submission is the same with this one only that if the Minister makes a different proposal, then we can come in again.

         There is an issue of introducing Section 36 (q) on Clause 18. That is the amendment of the Income Tax Act deeming royalties as a new tax. I may want some motivation from the Minister as to what are the motivations or the advantages of doing so. There is this amendment on Clause 19 which talks about no loan that will be extended by a financial institution in excess of USD20 000 without a tax clearance. What it means is that if I am a new someone and I want to start to venture into business, if I got an opportunity to get a loan of USD20 000, I am not entitled to a loan without proof that I have got a valid tax clearance. I was of the opinion that it does not discriminate the small or micro enterprises which are still small to register, but needs to grow with this amount. 

         Let me move on to the issue of the acquisition of mining title or transfer of mining title without value tax clearance. I think this is the beauty of suggestion by the Hon. Minister because mining titles by their nature, they indicate that someone has got money. If you transfer a title, it is indicative of the fact that you have got enough money or resources such that at least they prove that you have got a valid tax clearance, I think it is enough. There was no mention of the issue of VAT.

         The issue of exempting income of building societies. I think the clause from the Minister’s statement looks correct but from the clause, I think it looks a bit different because there was no difference in terms of framing from the old Act and the new Act. The only difference was that there was no definition of the term ‘building society’, from the new position. I think the Minister needs to check whether they made their actual intend of the Act.

         On Clause 25 (b)…

         THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are left with five minutes.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: The issue of a basis of calculation of royalties on PGMs, gold and other minerals, it appears exactly the same as in the old text because if you look at the PGMs, it is the London Metal Exchange price. If you go to the London Metal Exchange price, it is the same as the old. The difference applies to gold where they say the gross fair market value as determined by Fidelity Refinery. We know the prices that are prevailing in terms of the international price of gold. Why did the Hon. Minister choose to say the price is determined by Fidelity instead of getting the normal market price prevailing on the international market as we have done to the issue of PGM minerals depending on the concentration?

         The issue of Export, Clause 30, the issue of exporting of unbeneficiated platinum. The Hon. Minister indicated that it is now allowed when you want to export unbeneficiated platinum, you pay an unbeneficiated tax of 2%. My issue is, we have allowed the roadmap to value addition in this country and two companies in the platinum group category which is Unki and ZimPlats. They have gone a long way in the beneficiation trajectory. They have bought all the equipment which is necessary up to the BMR level, the Base Metal Refinery level.

         If you look at the plant for ZimPlats, the plant is big such that it does not break even when it operates with its own concentrate or with its own ores alone. It requires the help of other mineral mining company such as Carol, the Bravura, Mimosa and many other companies. I was of the opinion that can we at least ban the exportation of raw platinum or platinum ore outside the country under the circumstances and allow all those people to transport their platinum ore to ZimPlats for further processes so that we export a value-added product for more money? That is my suggestion Hon. Speaker. The tax does not help us in any way.

         On the issue of Government tenders, there is a suggestion that all ministries…

         THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your time is up Hon. Madzivanyika.

         HON. MUSHORIWA: I move that the Hon. Member’s time be extended.

         HON. TOGAREPI: I second.

         THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your time is extended with five minutes Hon. Madzivanyika.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you Madam Speaker and thank you colleagues for the extension. Let me move on to the issue of the provisions to deal with Government tenders. There is a new amendment to the fact that after the end of the month, every ministry must put returns to the ZIMRA saying this is what we have done in terms of tenders, the values and also the tenders which you have been awarded. I think it is a welcome development because it helps the ZIMRA to follow up on taxes to those guys who get tenders and never find their way to the ZIMRA.

         However, I was of the opinion that in order to plague illicities, can we also extend the submission of returns to the Public Accounts Committee of Parliament every month so that the Public Accounts Committee knows who has got a tender from the Ministry of Education, Ministry of Mines and for how much, who are the directors of this company so that we do not see a problem at the end of the year to say the Auditor General then says there was this risk and yet at Parliament we are here.

         I was of the opinion that can this clause be extended to ensure that Parliament puts a hand in this thing so that we are proactive in protecting the interest of this country. The issue of how to deal with seized goods; in the current Customs Act, there is a provision that when ZIMRA seizes your goods, whether customs or what, they are only allowed to sell those goods after a period of around six months. Now the time has been shortened to 60 days as per the new amendment.

         My suggestion is, look at this one, the ZIMRA needs 14 days to deal with your appeal. When your goods are seized and put into a warehouse, you are allowed to do an appeal in writing to the Commissioner to give your circumstance. May be the Commissioner may understand you because not all goods shall seize as a result of gross negligence. In some circumstances, it may be as a result of lack of knowledge.

         So, the tax payer is allowed to make representations to the Commissioner and the Commissioner needs 14 days to deal with your litigation, the Commissioner at visionary manager’s level. From there, if you want to appeal to the Commissioner General, you have to be given another 14 days, which means in essence we have just closed the month before your response. So, the 60 days will be too little to deal with this matter.

         I understand the urgency which the Government has but alternatively, if they want to continue with the 60 day period, we can try to ensure that ZIMRA has just six days to ensure that all appeals and objections are dealt with actually in the earliest possible time. For example, five to six days so that someone can have the time to appeal to the Commissioner. The same clause says that goods of no commercial value can be easily disposed with by the Commissioner without referring to its owner.

         So, the question is, the issue of ambiguity must be dealt with. How much is commercial value? Is USD100 commercial value, is USD200 commercial value? It must be very clear in terms of its value. The issue of submission of returns. The Minister came to say value added tax returns are now submitted on the 15^th of the month following collection. At the same time, excise duty returns is also being collected on the 15^th of the month of collection. What it means Madam Speaker, is that for beverage production, a producing company, you are faced with obligations of excise tax at the same time and on the same date of the 15^th.

So, I think that the liquidity situation of these companies may be affected. So, as a result, I would suggest that let us revert to the original 20^th on the issue of excise stands but then we revert to the 15^th of every month following collection for VAT so that we do not burden those companies like Delta who are our biggest cash cows, in terms of cash flows.

 Madam Speaker, let me move on to the issue of the amendment of section 223A of the Customs and Excise Act, which deals with post-clearance audits. What it says, Madam Speaker, is that there are some goods which are deemed to be smuggled if you are found in possession with or of them without producing customs clearance papers. For example, Company ABC Limited imported beer from South Africa, and they paid the duties at the Beitbridge Border post. They came to their warehouse and put their goods there, their beer there. Then a retailer DD, goes to the wholesaler and he purchases those goods from Zimbabwe. They are foreign goods and the retailer goes to his shop then someone also buys from the retailer and he goes to their maybe retail, small outlets of beer. Then if I meet a police officer, I am the last person on the value chain whilst I am carrying 20 cases of, for example, Castle Lite beers, I am arrested.

There is a need for customs clearance papers. This is the intention of the legislation.  I think the legislation must be very clear on what exactly is required and who exactly is required to produce customs documents. There is no way I can go back to the retailer who should also go back to the wholesaler to say where are the customs clearance documents? I think the applicability of this measure needs to be refined so that it becomes very clear how it is going to be applied.

 Madam Speaker, there is the issue of the introduction of royalties…

THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Madzivanyika, your time has expired.

HON. TOGAREPI: I would want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to put my word on this very important subject. Madam Speaker, I am an advocate of all Zimbabweans who can pay taxes to do so. This country cannot be run without us collecting revenue that then contributes to all the social services and all the Government activities that we are supposed to do as a Government. Tax needs to be paid.

Madam Speaker, I want to look at issues related to areas that the Minister has been targeting to get revenue from. I want to add some areas that the Minister has not targeted, which I think is a disservice to the people of Zimbabwe because those are sources where there is a concentration of resources, yet these people are not paying taxes.

 I want to talk about the fast food. I am one person who supports the idea of taxing fast food. For me, I do not consider somebody who goes to some of these fast foods as a poor person. I do not consider that person to be poor. When you look at those foods, generally, I am not saying they are very unique or that any average person cannot buy a pizza or go to some of these non-fast foods and buy from them. Occasionally they can, but if you see those who frequent those areas, usually they are people with money.  If those people are liquid, it then means that we need to find a way of collecting tax from those people, redistributing it as one area to those of our society who cannot buy those very expensive foods.

Secondly, research is showing clearly that these fast foods expose our people to a lot of these diseases. Yet these people pay so much to get these diseases, but they are not contributing to the healthcare. When they get ill with cancer or diabetes or whatever, they will go and strain the public health system. We should tax them so that we prepare the health system to look after them when they get ill. I think it is a very noble tax.

The other issue that I want the minister to really take seriously is the issue of those who are mining and exporting raw minerals. Those people are stealing from us and we need to tax them heavily. Minister, most of these minerals do not come as a single mineral. They come together with a lot of other minerals that are not declared when these people export those raw minerals.

We need to collect as much as we can estimate that within this combination of minerals, we are losing other minerals. So we tax them so that at least as Zimbabwe we will recover. We encourage that any mineral must be beneficiated. Where they can go up to production of the final good, we need to find a way and the best way of doing this is to tax them. When they do not want the tax and they feel the tax is unfair, they will then toe the line. They will go and invest in the beneficiation of those minerals and that will give us employment, that will give us more income as a country. So, Minister, job well done,

please, extend to all minerals.

What Hon. Madzivanyika was talking about, Zimplats, where they have seen a lot of development towards beneficiation. What they have done Madam Speaker, is to invest in beneficiation, if that can be done by many of our mining houses, it will mean a lot of development and a lot of employment.

We would want to support companies like Zimplats by ensuring other companies that are producing the same minerals now, to take their minerals to Zimplats or tax them heavily until they realise that exporting raw materials will not give them benefits, but they will make more money if they were to work with a company that is now beneficiating the platinum. So it is critical, Madam Speaker.

The other area, Minister, that I feel we need to target is areas where we are not taxing, where you should work with the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. We should not celebrate when we have an economy that is informalised and we think we are doing good and we actually brag and say, we have a country that is 70% or 80% informal.  When we have ways that can have all of these companies formalised, one of them is presumptive tax - tax them.

Anyone who does business in Zimbabwe must have either a hawker's licence or be registered as a company.  We should ensure that everybody is formalised and accounted for. If we do not do that, we will have very rich individuals in this country. Yet our Government is very poor.  What sort of environment is that? We have very rich people who have no bank accounts, very rich people who are not registered in any way but you see in their lifestyles that they are rich.  Why do we not find a way of bringing every one of these individuals into the tax net? – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] –

So, there should be something in your budget that traces and tracks these individuals and they must pay tax.  Tax, by its function, and with many other functions, we must distribute these resources from these rich people to the poor.  As we are in a situation of drought today in Zimbabwe, we need to take money from these rich people to buy grain and look after the poor. We need to take money from these people to improve our hospitals and build schools. But if we allow them to go scot-free and it is fashionable in Zimbabwe to be rich but you are not registered in anywhere, we do not know where your money is coming from.  I do not think we are doing any justice or fairness to our country.  So, I encourage the Hon. Minister that we widen our tax net as much as we can.  

Areas that you have proposed for taxation, Hon. Minister I have no qualms. We need a culture in Zimbabwe where everyone feels obligated to pay tax.  As Zimbabweans, we want good roads, as Zimbabweans we want good hospitals and good schools. We want a well-paid police force, our soldiers and our parliamentarians to be paid well. But how do we pay these people if Government has no revenue?  Yet we have very rich people. 

Go in all suburbs of this country and see beautiful houses.  Where are these monies coming from yet the Government is not collecting anything?  So, you also need a serious lifestyle audit for most of these Zimbabweans. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -  Get your share out of the wealth these people are displaying in broad daylight, that I am rich.  I built a 24-roomed house.  Where did you get the money from?  If you look at the man’s payslip, he earns $200.00 but he built a 12-roomed house in Borrowdale.  Hon. Minister, you cannot just look the other way if we are going to build this country, if we are going to build the infrastructure and provide good transport for our people.

Hon. Members were crying here, we want to see them living pretty because they are doing a good job debating up to this hour for the good of the people of Zimbabwe.  But where do you get the money from to ensure that they are looked after if you do not tax? People who cry, some of the issues I said in the last debate, that some people want to be, I mean, to play to the gallery. To say, if you tax this person, no, they will be poor, they are poor people and so forth. No, let us not play politics with running of the country.

We cannot be the only country in the world that every other person is rich, but yet our Government cannot pay for essential services social services for its people. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] - We cannot have a country like that. We have a very bad road that goes to Glenview, yet along the road we have beautiful houses.  How did these houses come about, yet we cannot have a good road to link those houses to Harare city?

So, do not change anything, Hon. Minister. You can take a lot of advice from my brother Hon. Madzivanyika because of his knowledge of tax, but tax people, tax them. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -  Thank you.

*HON. CHIKWINYA:  Thank you for affording me this opportunity.   Madam Speaker Ma’am, as we observe, our tax base is shrinking. Why? It is simply because our informal sector base is now quite big.  I discovered that all the big shops which we had in Zimbabwe, for example, HM Barbours was subdivided into smaller shops. In Zimbabwe, we no longer have any big shops, except maybe three shops. All of them have been subdivided into smaller shops.

My question is, how are we taxing such shops? If I am not mistaken, those who did their survey in Harare, they have more than 1.2 million smaller shops, which are no longer paying tax from last year up to this year. Let me express it this way. If we now have those smaller shops, ZIMRA said they do not know how to tax them and they do not know the situation.  When I visited other countries, I discovered that they have what they call a BIPA, whoever is marketing or selling from whichever angle.   I advise Hon. Members to research on how BIPA operates. If we have BIPA, they simply take maybe a cent, which will then be channelled towards the fiscus.

Moving onto what was said by the Chief Whip. He said that some people do not pay tax and they do not know how to pay tax.  If we actually want to do tax collection, I remember way back when we used to have tax for dogs and cats.  I used to think it was abnormal.  Now we are at certain level whereby our Government has suffered enough. Let me go back to this sector which I am speaking to.  I remember when I spoke way back, as Zimbabweans, we have the second-highest number of informal sectors worldwide.  We are number two from Bolivia. If a country is like that, it does not have any formal sector and we rely on the informal sector. Let us go straight to that informal sector and research to say how best can we collect revenue from those angles?

The other issue that I want to speak of is that of border posts. We have a lot of heavy-duty vehicles which are collecting minerals from this country. All those heavy-duty vehicles are travelling in and out of this country. Are they all being taxed and at what point? Some of them are travelling at night. Even right now, it is midnight and they are ferrying our products without being taxed. Let us look into it and ensure that be it ZIMRA or ZRP, we need a third force which will then make a follow up to those taxes in shops and to those people who do not pay. I do not know whether we can appoint police officers or soldiers. I am worried about the non-payment of tax. Let us look into a way in which we have to collect it. Even those who are doing fowl marketing and vegetables, they are making money. Let us all stick to the BIPA method.

HON. DR. KHUPE:  Thank you Madam Speaker. The Minister of Finance exempted the platinum producers from paying royalties because he wanted to give them an opportunity to complete the processing plant. Now that they have completed the processing plant, they must start paying royalties. At the same time, we are exporting jobs to other countries because we are not beneficiating those minerals. We must start processing those minerals so that we employ more people who will cut and polish those minerals into finished goods. This means that we must move away from being primary producers into secondary producers. Once that happens, more people will be employed and the Minister of Finance will be able to collect more money through income tax because many people would have been employed. That will assist in making sure that we grow our revenue base.

HON. MUKOMBERI:  Thank you Madam Speaker for the opportunity you have given me to add my voice on the Finance Bill. The amendments made in terms of the 38^th Schedule to do with the deemed income tax payers, those who are not registered are now being deemed to have a liability of some presumptive tax, starting from the spare parts dealers of 9 000 car dealers and other things. I strongly support this initiative for it widens the tax base of our country so as to raise revenue that we need in all the appropriations we were talking about.

Madam Speaker, in the calculation of the projected income, the Minister in the Budget had an assumption that around 19.5% of the GDP is the income that we are expecting to raise through collecting taxes. Predominantly, our income revenue is from tax. It therefore means that the GDP that we are basing on in calculating the tax, 19.6% of GDP, that GDP, measured in terms of the income approach, will be taking into account every item of expenditure, from consumption expenditure, investment, Government expenditure and net exports. It means therefore that every transaction and every production that takes place in Zimbabwe should be traced to have some income or some tax being collected from such activity. So, this is a welcome initiative to also widen the tax base.

Also, the adjustment on the tax bands, starting from the threshold of 33 601 and above is also a progressive move. However, I propose that to avoid bracket creep in terms of those income earners who earn their income in forex, maybe they are earning in US dollars, I think it is ideal that these tax bands be given in real terms rather than nominal terms because of the duty inflation. Every bracket may be eroded away such that those who earn their income in US dollars will have cumulative burden of tax but on the same income without an actual increase in their real income.

Madam Speaker, I also want to support various taxes introduced as new taxes in the Finance Bill that are aimed at increasing the revenue base, running from the betting taxes, with the intention to raise revenue. I think this one is also work to be supported. Also, the fast foods tax is an initiative to be supported for it facilitates in the raising or funding of the tax base or the revenue for the Government to fund appropriations as well as providing some funding to deal with the diseases that are caused by the fast foods.

I also want to support the idea that someone who buys such foods should not be deemed a poor person because such foods are luxurious foods. Poor people eat sadza at home and some basic stuff. Those who go there and buy such foods are high income earners. So, a tax regime should be targeting at redistributing income from the rich to the poor so that we collect revenue that we are going to use to cushion the poor. Also, the charging of plastic bag taxes as in the Finance Bill is also a welcome initiative. As you know, the plastic bags, whenever one gets into a supermarket and buys some stuff, one is going to buy a plastic bag. It is not bad to buy it but as a source of income, we know that cumulatively, a number of consumers are going to contribute a significant amount that is going to add to the national fiscus. I think Madam Speaker, this is what I can say and add to support the proposals made by the Minister in the Finance Bill. I thank you.

*HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO:  Thank you Madam Speaker. Kindly allow me to add my voice to the debate in this House. Personally, I am understanding what is being said by those people, to search for funds for issues to do with education and health. Looking into three to five years ago, I have discovered he has been coming in here introducing new taxes. I am of the view that Zimbabweans have suffered enough. Nothing is in order at all. Therefore, the new taxes which are being introduced here – if I may focus on the two taxes.

One is on fast foods and the second one is on betting tax. On the fast-foods, from December to March 2025, that is the lean season. This means that a minimum of six million citizens of Zimbabwe would be in need of food. Others are saying fast-food is not for the poor but I think that fast food is for the poor. I am of the view that those who are economically stable will go to the expensive restaurants. Those who go to fast foods are the poorest ones who can spend $2 to $3 to buy.

Focusing on the issue that we have of hunger or drought right in front of us which was caused by El Nino, I am kindly asking the Minister to feel pity for all the Zimbabweans as we focus on this tax.

I move onto the betting tax. I am of the view that the betting tax companies must be taxed and not individuals who are going there to source for income because they do not have jobs. We are talking of 90% of informal sector, people are sourcing money from everywhere so that they can take care of their families. I think the tax should be directed to the betting companies.

The other thing that causes people not to appreciate tax is because some of the taxes which we are approving here in this august House, we are saying we are ring fencing taxes but they are not being used the proper way as promised. That will lead to people to say, why are we having tax after tax? We do not know how some of these tax were used. I suggest that we should get our income from mining. The mining sector is the biggest contributing sector of our GDP. So, much of the tax should be coming from mining. Let us avoid collecting revenues from the poor but from those who are rich. I thank you.

HON. DR. MUTODI: Thank you Madam Speaker. I want to add my voice on the proposed tax measures in the Finance Bill. I think on the fast foods, as the middle income population increases, there is a direct relationship between the increase and the demand for fast foods. So, if you look at the earning before interest and tax for fast food outlets, you will find out that it has risen year after year, showing high profitability of these institutions mainly because of the increase in demand for the fast foods.  So, the high profits are also not enjoyed locally. Some of the profits are enjoyed outside the country due to the foreign ownership of some of the fast foods. I support the introduction of the fast-food tax and the Minister has done the correct decision in that regard.

On the minerals, I agree with the Hon. Member who has just spoken that there is need for robust measures to tax the mining sector, but of course those which have been switched to beneficiation like platinum. I am sure the Budget Committee recommended that there be no beneficiation tax and there also be a road map towards taxation for those minerals which are not yet beneficiated.

On the sugar tax, the Committee wanted to have a 1:4 mixing ratio for tax purposes but the Minister has proposed 1:2 and we accept this mixing ratio in effort to increase the Government tax income.

Madam Speaker and Hon. Members, I think we need to understand that there is need to strike a balance between cushioning companies or tax payers from a huge tax burden against allowing the Minister to raise enough adequate funding for Government. So, we really support the Minister’s effort to broaden the tax base and ensure that he raises as much income as possible, perhaps for us even to come up with the budget surplus. We can actually do that, it is possible to have a budget surplus realising that we have got a 35 billion economy yet we have got just 5 billion available for Government expenditure and that we can ensure that we have robust measures to ensure that we increase out tax base and earn Government more money.

There must also be punitive measures on the people who are evading tax through various mechanisms which they are using. I support the idea that ZIMRA must follow up on companies that are declaring losses. I am sure Hon. Madzivanyika said there are certain companies that are declaring loses and they are doing that purposefully because they want to evade tax. I am sure it is good for ZIMRA to come up with measures to follow up on those companies and ensure that they pay their tax. I thank you.

HON.  J. TSHUMA: Thank you very much Madam Speaker for giving me this opportunity to add my voice as well on this matter.  A lot of valid points have been said and I also stand here to support the notion of taxation because we hear a lot of people crying outside there for service delivery. People want good hospitals, medication, good roads, food aid but at the same time there is a devil that goes behind the back and say cry out, Government is overtaxing you because their sole purpose and intention is to make sure that this Government fails and then when it fails, they win on the regime change agenda [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.]-

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: On a point of order Madam Speaker.

THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you Madam Speaker, I think it is important that Hon. Members understand diversity. It must be tolerated when I differ with another Hon. Member on a particular subject, it does not mean that I am advancing a regime change agenda. That must be very clear. The suppositions of the statement by the Hon. Member are misplaced to say the very least. I suggest that he may withdraw that statement. It is not consistent with the ethos of democracy.

THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Tshuma, please may you please stick to the debate? You may proceed

HON. J. TSHUMA: The guilty are afraid. I did not say that there is any Hon. Member who has said the regime change issues. What I simply put across is the very statement that we hear outside there. We are told that you are Parliamentarians, you are going there to allow the Hon. Minister of Finance to tax us, we are drowning in these taxes and this is a narrative that is being pushed by a certain entity that does not want to see success of Zimbabwe as a country and that I will stand by …

HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: Point of order Madam Speaker.

THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER (HON. MAUNGANIDZE): What is your point of order?

HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: Thank you Madam Speaker. The Hon. Member who just made a point of order and it was ruled that he should stick to the debate. We should encourage debate and we bring our views. We are not bringing them because we want the Minister of Finance to fail. We are bringing them because that is what we believe is the diversity that we want. We are all contributing to this country because we want this country to proceed. I think the Hon. Member should stick to the debate and stop debating the debate of other Hon. Members. I thank you.

THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Well, noted. Hon. Tshuma, can you please stick to the debate? You may proceed.

         HON. J. TSHUMA: Madam Speaker, at no point have I taken anybody’s debate here.  I am simply stating a fact that is alive, a fact that is outside there that our people– [HON. TOBAIWA: Inaudible interjection.] –

         THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: Order Hon. Tobaiwa, can you please stop shouting.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: On a point of order Madam Chair.

         THE TEMPORARY SPEAKER: What is your point of order Hon. Madzivanyika?

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: I expect the Hon. Member of Parliament to say on sugar tax, I am saying this, even if your view is different from others, there is no problem.  Tell us your issues, there is no problem than this that he is talking about.  It is not professional Madam Speaker.

         HON. J. TSHUMA: Thank you Madam Speaker, so the Hon. Minister of Finance is doing God’s work.  Laws are there to make sure that a country survives and it will survive by collecting revenue.  We will not go anywhere if we try and suppress revenue collection.  What I want to urge the Hon. Minister is most probably to invest or put money towards the education of our people on the reasons of taxation and why taxes are being collected.

         Even if you go to church you are told that you are supposed to pay 10% tithing and that tithing is so that the Lord’s work is done and is carried out effectively. I want to stand up here to say that Hon. Minister of Finance, yes let us tax people accordingly and let us also, like what our Hon. Government Chief Whip put across, go to the mining companies and make sure that any mineral that is not processed is definitely taxed, even twice so that we discourage people from exporting raw materials and encourage beneficiation.  So, I want to stand here to say the taxes are welcome and revenue is much needed so that our country can move forward and we have good hospitals, good roads and everything that we require.

         *HON. S. TSHUMA: Thank you Madam Speaker. I will speak a little bit to add on to the previously debated points.  Hon. Minister, we are in support of the taxes for the country to raise revenue.   I was actually happy on the royalties which were put in place on our minerals which include coal, black granite including quarry.  The challenge which I discovered is that yes, we might say we want to deduct such percentage in the form of tax but if we do not plan well on how best we can collect these taxes, remember all these minerals are extracted from various areas. Remember these minerals are sold in tonnes.  So sometimes they are marketed right at the place where they do their mining.

         We do not have any department which goes around to supervise how those minerals are processed.  Gold goes to Fidelity and who collects coal and quarry? Who collects it and how? Right now, we have a lot of areas where people are mining quarry.  Some of the companies might be willing to pay but there is no one who does the follow up to say how much has been extracted and how much should be paid.

         Yes, a lot of people are confirming that we are getting a lot of minerals from various places. If we do not have such things and then we start it from the top like this, people will take advantage because there will be no one monitoring them.  Nobody is willing to pay tax and even in churches, some of the people are actually refusing to pay tax.

         The second issue is that of the informal sector. The whole House is debating on the issue to do with the informal sector.  Let me go back a bit, you know way back, we used to have some licence for one to go and buy from wholesales.  Right now, it is a bit different. Big shops, for example our wholesalers or our big supermarkets, we have ruined them through rates that they are asked to pay.  In small tuck shops where people rush to buy where tuck shops do not pay tax, a lot of people will be queuing there paying in US dollars.  People are rich in this country but the biggest challenge which is affecting us is that of rates.  We can speak to it indirectly but that is the major problem. 

         Madam Speaker, Minister of Finance, if they are sisters in rectifying these problems even right here as Hon. Members are debating things to do with CDF, they will cry foul in terms of rates.  So those other shops from outside are now taking advantage.  When using US dollars, they offer good prices and this will then defeat the purpose of wholesalers since they are being forced to sell using ZiG at interbank rate, which is a bit different as compared to the black market rate. 

         I am kindly appealing to the Hon. Minister that let us all support these big shops that are paying taxes. That is the only solution to those who are working in the informal sector. We cannot make a follow up to all of them.  In downtown, the owners of big shops have sub divided them into smaller shops. People used to rush to go and purchase in Mohamed Mussa but now there is nothing like that.  Even Delta who used to rely on those with licences, small business operators are now having access to purchase or buy products from Delta. That is the biggest challenge that we have. I am kindly requesting that Hon. Minister, we need to secure big businesses to ensure safety and profitablity.  They are running losses that will then discourage them from continuously operating as big businesses.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE) Thank you Madam Speaker, I appreciate the contributions of various Members of this august House. If I could give some responses and some input to certain areas.  Let me start with the comments and input from Hon. Mushoriwa who felt that some of the items in the Finance Bill perhaps should not be there, they do not pertain to money issues and so forth. This was adequately responded to with the Leader of the House who made us to understand that in the new Constitution, there is no such restriction and besides the items that we included, although not pertaining to appropriations and revenue as such,    

but they pertain to the stewardship of our national assets,  management of our wealth and above all the management of our economy as a whole.  That is what Mutapa Investment Fund is all about.  There are issues that pertain to Mutapa in the Bill.  In terms of ring fencing taxes, I thought this would be a very welcome issue but I am surprised the Hon. Member does not think ring fencing is a good idea.  I still think it is a good idea to ring fence the proceeds of the fast foods tax, for example, will ring fence that for the support of the health sector. 

         Then on the deadline of 24 hours for banks to remit whatever they will have collected to ZIMRA, that maybe this deadline is too tight, it is not.  On the contrary, we are seeing quite errant behaviour from the banking sector where they have not been doing this timeously and we think that we should really tighten things.  We have had to take some unnecessary actions in the past to ensure compliance.  Then on the collection of VAT, which should be remitted within 15 days after it is declared, you also think the deadline is too tight.  I do not think it is too tight as there is enough time and they should be able to remit without difficulty.  Then on the issue of ZIMRA having the right to close some businesses if they have not complied, at the moment ZIMRA has a right to issue garnish orders on accounts and they have been doing this very diligently.  When that happens, you cannot trade and I have received so many appeals and even complaints to ask ZIMRA to ease the screws on these companies and my response has always been please try to comply and if you are guilty, go and negotiate and see if you can come up with a payment plan.  That often works but we are giving ZIMRA more teeth this time around to make sure that the provision is stronger and we are able to enforce compliance.  The intervention from Hon. Ziyambi was very clear. Thank you very much for making it clearer to everybody that this time around, a money Bill is not just restricted to revenue raising measures or indeed incentives but encompasses issues that pertain to the stewardship of the economy and our assets.

         Hon. Madzivanyika, thank you for your contributions on the tax bracket example.  I thought that what we did was very clear on the movement of the exchange rates.  Then on the levy on betting, you said it is too high but I do not think so.  We have followed what other countries have done and we will learn from that experience and we are ready to adjust if the adjustments are necessary.  Look at what we have done to the sugar content tax.  We have had to adjust it as we experience collections and as we get complaints and suggestions from players.  So we have been flexible about it.  Then turning to the issue of royalties, you wondered why we are now saying royalties should be treated as taxes but this is to the advantage of the royalty payer.  Under royalties, there are some penalties and there is no escape from those penalties even for late payment for whatever reason.  But if it is a tax and the Commissioner feels that the reason had nothing to do with misbehaviour and there is a genuine reason for non-payment or late payment, they can waive those penalties.  So, this is a proposal meant to advantage the royalty or tax payer.

         Then on fast foods, you feel there is now an overlap between sugar content tax and the fast foods tax.  You then gave the example of a shawarma which when you eat you chew and you do not drink it.  So, I was not so sure that there is a sugar content tax in it but there is a sugar content tax if you buy a coca-cola and drink it.  So, there is no overlap as these are two different foods.  One is a drink and the other is solid.  So, the sugar tax is focused on the liquid sugar content tax.  On the carrier bag tax that maybe it is too high, some countries have outrightly banned these carrier bags.  We have however resisted banning as we felt we will be deleting businesses or jobs and we thought a good halfway house was to impose a tax which we can always review.  We can always come back to this House and review.  In fact any Member can call us to explain how well this is going and what the progress is then we could together agree on the next step.

         Then on the proposal that we move away from liable to the SOFOR, this is a global imperative.  Everyone has moved away from the liable because there were serious challenges of manipulation.  Two years ago, there was a global case of serious manipulation of the liable rate, which was a very important rate for pricing of all credit as a benchmark and for pricing credit risk for any company in any country.  It is a very important benchmark and we do not want any shenanigans around it so when shenanigans arose, the world had no choice but to move away from liable.  We are merely following the rest of the world.  Then coming to the idea that penalties do not cause compliance, I am not sure but I think they do if enforced at the right level.

         Then there was something on inconsistencies in clauses.  We will check if they are there and clean up if there is need.  This includes the clause regarding building societies, we will double check to ensure it has the semantic import which is to tax commercial banking activity but not to tax the building society’s core activities.  Then on whether the royalties on PGMs and gold are new or not, we will double check to make sure there are no errors there.  I will ask the team to check and we will also check.  Then there is choice between the Fidelity price and the London price. Also, the beneficiation tax that maybe it is no longer necessary as everyone can go and beneficiate at ZimPlats.  Perhaps what we must be doing now is banning export of raw PGMs and then force everybody to process at ZimPlats.  Let us just reflect for a moment.  What we are saying is that a private company developed its own refinery capacity and then you force the rest of the economy to do business with that company.  I do not think it is the job of Government to do that.  Government tries to encourage the operation of competition and perhaps market forces so that it happens by osmosis.  Let the forces force everyone to do that.   I would not jump into banning so quickly without first trying out market forces to make this happen.  But I can see the reasoning behind and there is quite a bit of capacity in this facility at ZimPlats, however I am not sure that we should force everybody to go there. 

         Then on the issue of tenders, Hon. Madzivanyika, we welcome this move that those bidding for tenders with Government should register for tax and there must be evidence that they have done so and we need to see some reports as Treasury.  In fact, MDAs reporting to Treasury should also continue reporting to the Public Accounts Committee.  We have no issue with this at all and there are no secrets here.  Then perhaps the payment of VAT and other taxes around the same time and the terms that on the 15^th of the month may put a strain on companies.  Let us test it first and see if it will put a strain.  I would rather proceed that way and then we can make adjustments later.

         Hon. Togarepi, thank you for the support for the fast foods tax but also generally for encouraging a culture of payment of taxes. You have been very clear and strong on this issue but on the fast foods tax you basically said, let us prepare our health system to cater for those who may fall sick from the consumption of these fast-food. Let us make sure that our health system is robust. Let us invest in it. Where will the money come from? Let us tax their consumption behaviour and use those proceeds to prepare for the day when they get sick and I think that is very logical reasoning indeed. What I had written was just to emphasise around building a culture of payment of taxes including lifestyle, audits and so forth among other things.

         I turn to Hon. Chikwinya who argue that tax base is shrinking due to informalisation. That is why we are embarking on this blitz programme jointly with security forces, ZIMRA, and Ministry of Industry and Commerce. We want to make sure that we deal with it but also, we have provisions already around what we call location tax and what is required here is enforcement. Also, in this Bill, we have the clause regarding the registration for tax what we are calling the emerging sector which really is the informal sector but a very large informal sector in terms of size of these companies. We are on to this one so we agree with you Hon. Chikwinya that we have to go after this informal sector and get what is due to the fiscus so that we have fair contribution to the fiscus.

         From Hon. Khupe, that companies in the platinum sector should start paying royalties. If they are saying that they have completed the refinery and beneficiation is now underway then they must start paying royalties. This benefit should then be called off or cancelled.

         Hon. Mukomberi that you are happy with the intention to expand the tax base and the tax bands you advise that we should be careful about the issue of tax crib and so forth, and that we should adjust in line with the exchange rate. I am reluctant to put in a statement like that. I think let us make a decision as with tax bands in our currency of reference which is the ZiG and that is what we have done rather than making an automatic link to the exchange rate. It might mean that our tax bands especially in a period of high volatility, they have to change every month and that could be very unmanageable if not untidy.

         Then a colleague, I missed your name but it was a lady Member of Parliament who made an input around the betting tax that maybe issued to companies. We are learning from other countries so we believe that what we are doing focusing on these punters is the way to go. We need to fine tune. It is the first time we are doing it and I do not think anyone is any wiser really except to follow what others are doing in other countries like Kenya, Malawi and Zambia. We will fine tune as we go forward and we always stand ready to fine tune.

         Hon. Mutodi, you really placed a context of the fast food tax well. As the middle class grows in any economy, you tend to see the increase in the consumption of fast foods and these companies keep growing and in fact, they grow very fast as that class bulges but then you also see a commensurate increase in non-communicable diseases and what a cunning correlation. Therefore, we should tax the consumption of fast foods so that we prepare our health sector to deal with the scourge of these NCDs.

         Hon. Tshuma you tackled a point which I must have seen also in the media that perhaps, Zimbabwe is over taxed and I agree with you. Zimbabwe is not over taxed. The tax to GDP ratio is only 18%. I think what members could probably raise is the distribution of that tax among different tax heads. Maybe the incidents of tax are not equitable according to tax heads, especially when you compare corporate with individual, PAYE and so forth but in terms of the level of taxation, Zimbabwe is actually not over taxed. I believe that for the size of the economy and level of development, it is appropriately taxed.

         Then investing in tax education, I agree with Hon. Tshuma that we should do more. We have already started. ZIMRA has a programme for education of citizens in terms of tax payments and we will continue to do more.

         Hon. Spencer Tshuma on the issue of perhaps financing our tax collection systems for collecting tax for things like coal, granite, quarry and so forth. I agree with but this really is a job for ZIMRA, I cannot just spell it in a Bill. These are operational administrative issues but you are shining the torch in the right direction and we will get ZIMRA to finance the collection system. As they do this, they will be collaborating with institutions such as ZMDC, MMCZ among others. You also highlighted that the exchange rate is an issue and it undermines the tax collection effort especially from the formal sector. The tax revenue ends up shrinking because the formal sector is under the assault of the informal sector and really, we must make every effort to protect the formal sector. This is one way to protect revenue collection but I guess also we should increase our efforts to collect from the informal sector.

         I now move that the Bill be read a second time.

         Motion put and agreed to.

         Bill read a second time.

         Committee Stage: With leave, forthwith.

         HON. MUSHORIWA: Madam Speaker, the Hon. Minister had made a move to say that we do it at a quarter past two p. m. sharp.  I think it is only fair Hon. Speaker.  If you want the credibility of our budget processes, let us just have it in the afternoon. I do not think we will lose anything. 

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Maybe to add on Madam Speaker, if you can indulge me.  You remember that we had a departmental draft which had 30 clauses.  Now that they are around 65 clauses, we need some more time to look at it.  We received it only last night.  Can we have more time to look at the clauses to do with Sovereign Wealth Fund and other real Acts and so forth so that we make informed debate on this very important national Bill?  

         THE HON. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Madzivanyika, the Bill was circulated on Friday, not last night as you are alleging.  The whole House is now in Committee.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: The Bill that was circulated on Friday is different from the one that was circulated last night.  Can you make cross-checks? 

         HON. MUSHORIWA: There was actually a mistake in terms of the Bills that were circulated. There is what we call law of unintended consequence.  If you guys think we are going to allow any clause to go undebated, we will be here until sunrise.

         COMMITTEE STAGE

FINANCE (2) BILL [H. B. 12, 2024]

House in Committee.

Clause 1 put and agreed to.

On Clause 2:

HON. MUSHORIWA: Hon. Chair, I am just wondering and I want the Hon. Minister to explain the rationale of bringing this Clause 2.  What is it that he intends to fix by this clause?

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  Thank you very much.  Clause 2 pertains to payment of taxes in the currency of trade.  Mr. Chairman, the clause seeks to provide clarity to the extent that during the 2024 second quarter payment date, tax payers were accorded with option to pay corporate income tax in both local and foreign currency in line with the proportions of the currency of trade.

Thus, any tax payer who pays their 2024 second quarter corporate income tax fully in foreign currency or in the proportion of currency of trade, shall be deemed to have complied with their obligations with respect to payment of tax in the currency of trade for that period.  Hence, no penalties or interests will arise.  This is meant to advantage those tax payers who complied. 

Clause 2 put and agreed to.

On Clause 3:

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Chair, I have heard the Hon. Minister saying that he believes that there are a lot of things happening within the banking sector.  I want to appeal to the Hon. Minister to simply say the period of 24 hours of remittance to me is just too tight for financial institutions to abide by. 

I would actually have thought that the best thing that you could do is; let us leave the 48 hours in place and then create room for punitive – I know you said that you want to move from the 200% penalty so that at least you substitute with the bank policy plus 5%.  The bank policy at the moment stands at 35 plus 5 that will be 40. My thinking is that, knowing how the banking system works; and I am also very sure that there would be some other technical issues that could actually also arise.  Leaving this clause in the current set up would actually be very difficult – it will be punishing banks that have agreed to act as agents of the Government. 

I am also sure the cost aspect and the Hon. Minister needs to justify to us to simply say, ‘what is it in terms of cost that the Government would suffer or the prejudice that the Government will suffer for that extra day?’ To me, it is important that we do this.  Let us keep it at 48 hrs.  Twenty four hours to me is totally not proper and it is difficult to implement. 

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Thank you very much.  The 24 hours, that amendment from 48 hours is necessary Chair. What is happening is that the banks have not been honouring their obligation to pass on these resources to the Government.  They keep these resources having received them from ZIMRA and then they do not pass them or rather from the tax payers.  Government, now is hamstrung trying to look for resources to meet their other obligations and yet the banks hold on to these resources.  This has happened many a time and we are trying to deal with it.  We really have to be tough on this. 

         In fact, it happened in the last few months and then when I checked as to why they were delaying, at least some of them were honest with me. They said Hon Minister, we decide who to pay first.  Even if it is your money, we look after our clients first and we then pay Treasury last.  So, I rest my case.

HON. MUSHORIWA: Chair, if the Hon. Minister wants to insists on this, I think we need also a proviso under this Clause because let us imagine that a bank fails to then pay within the 24 hours probably due to a technical issue or a system failure. We need to make sure that there is a proviso that there is actually a leeway rather than a situation where you simply come up with a guillotine  and simply say this has to be done.  Hon. Chair, if we do that there is actually danger. I know for instance some of the banks where the Government is a big shareholder that actually have the challenges.  Some of these banks are the ones that you find in the remote parts of the country where you do not have many banks there and the RBZ and Government is not represented. 

         Hon. Chair, they have got system challenges that we know.  I think we need to add a proviso to simply say that there is an appeal or a mechanism where a bank can actually make representation if it falls within the 24 hours so that at least there is a leeway. If we just leave it like this, I think this becomes punitive and the next thing that you then see is that either the banks will then probably refuse to actually act as the agent of even ZIMRA.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  No bank will refuse money from Zimbabwe.  It is a very big and important client and they should bank with ZIMRA, ZIMRA is after all a very good client for most banks.  I am not in favour of that proviso that in the event of a glitch then this penalty should not apply.  I think let us wait for the glitch to occur then we assess it accordingly, the bank can say we had a technical glitch.  We do not want the glitch to be used as a default excuse, each time they delay, they will say we had a glitch because the law says so.  We have learnt a lot from over providing most of these clauses.  So, it is okay as it is but I appreciate Hon. Mushoriwa’s concerns, he is trying to make sure that we are not overly tough on the banking sector but on this occasion it is necessary.  If he wants me to have a bilateral quiet conversation with him, I will tell him more about what is happening in the banking sector.  I thank you.

         Clause 3 put and agreed to.

         On Clause 4:

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  Thank you Hon. Chair.  My worry is on Clause 4(b) (1). Under the current circumstances Hon. Chair, the tax-free threshold is US$100 or ZiG2 800. What it means Hon. Chair is that at a rate of 28, US$100 is equivalent to ZiG2 800 today, that amount is not taxed.  Assuming Hon. Chair that something happened at the exchange rate market, and then the rate goes to 40 for example, it therefore means the same ZiG100 which is tax free threshold is now going to 4 000 because it will be now 100 times 40 which is 4 000.  What it means therefore is that the same person who is earning in ZiG has now gone to a higher tax bracket of 20% but in real terms, nothing has changed in terms of what they are earning, what has only changed is inflation or exchange rate movement. 

         My suggestion Hon. Chair, to avoid any prejudice to anyone, because in terms of payment of PAYE you pay with the rate that is prevailing on the day of payment.  Why can we not use the same in terms of the tax bracket?  We should just make a proviso that this US$100 should move with the exchange rate so that those who are earing in ZiG are not prejudiced.  I am sure I have demonstrated clearly for the benefit of the House. 

         HON. MUSHORIWA:  I want to associate myself with submissions by Hon. Madzivanyika. 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (HON. NGULUVHE): Let us avoid repetition.

         HON. MUSHORIWA:  We do not repeat Hon. Chair, we actually contribute.  When a person says I associate, it does not mean I want to repeat, I associate with what he has said but I am coming up from a different angle.  The issue is, whilst we appreciate and understand that we need to get as much money as possible.  The point that the rate of the budget is 28 but if you then check within the figures, we also know that the real rate there is actually 36. I was going to suggest that let us exempt under (i) there so that instead of saying up to 33 600, let us go to 43 200. The 33 600 relates to ZiG2 800. We are basically moving the basic from 2 800 to 3 600, what you would then do is allow the other brackets to remain as they are. 

         The rationale Hon. Minister is that we also need to make sure that we safeguard bearing in mind that the same person that you are asking to pay the 20% tax is the same person that will also when they transact especially the ZiG amount, they also pay their IMMT.  They are the same people that when they go to shop, they pay VAT.  Let us try to do that.  Then tied to that Hon. Minister, you also take note of this, those that earn foreign currency, the 100 dollar foreign currency, they are actually at an advantage.  The one that has cash of US dollars is actually at an advantage than the one that get ZiG amount.  To me I do not think that it will be a big dent to Treasury to simply allow the movements from 33 600 to 43 200.  I think it is a modest. 

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Thank you very much.  I thank the Hon. Members for their concern Hon. Madzivanyika and Hon. Mushoriwa and their proposals.  Hon. Chair, I am not in favour of linking these tax bands to the exchange rate.  There is an assumption that the exchange rate will always weaken and yet it could also strengthen.  Exchange rates are meant to move in either direction. Really I cannot support that proposal to link it to the exchange rate, it will just become quite untidy. 

         Also, what companies need is certainty, they plan, they budget, they revise their budget at the sixth month point and then the final budget in the last quarter of the year, whatever their financial year is.  Now, if you are going to link this to the exchange rate, they start also focusing this exchange rate just to arrive at the wage bill for the company.  Imagine what kind of chaos could be created in our economy.  I will not be supportive of that, actually it will cause a lot of uncertainty in the market.  Therefore, I feel that what we have proposed here is good, it gives certainty and besides we always review wages, especially for civil servants and then industry follows suit. It is not as if everything is cast in stone then nothing ever changes in terms of emoluments for employees in whatever sector. Things do change and I suspect that during 2025 again, there will be some wage reviews. I thank you.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you Hon. Chair. There is no certainty already in the market. So, to allude that there will be more uncertainty because I think that it will bring certainty to say that the Minister is concerned about his people. The Minister is indeed concerned that he knows why he is losing anything whenever there is variation in terms of the exchange rate. Why are we saying this Hon. Minister? We are talking from an informed position.

This has happened and there was a depreciation of 43% of the local currency on the 26^th of September. Companies that had not made their payrolls used the new exchange rate against the old salaries. We are not only worried about civil servants who are in Government but are also worried about the private sector where we have got people who earn in ZiG, they are affected. We cannot bury our hands in the sand and say that nothing has happened. Something has happened and what do we want?

We also want certainty on behalf of those tax payers. They must also trust the Minister to say the Minister is also concerned about our circumstances. My issue Hon. Minister is, what is the prejudice because on civil servants, you increased by USD40?  If you change this amount with the current exchange rate to compare with the magnitude of depreciation, those things are not aligning and are not making sense.

What we want Hon. Speaker, is to ensure that we do not prejudice anyone. I think that it is a very valid point. We expect the Hon. Minister to consider this very important issue so that no one suffers any prejudice because there will be no automatic adjustments.

We are changing these figures today but they have been there from the Mid-Term Budget Review.  What are we then saying? We are saying that the civil servants have been prejudiced already. Because of that, as legislators, it is our role to represent those people. It is also our role to represent the workers of this country and we are supposed to take a stand to ensure that no one is prejudiced and even the Government is not also prejudiced in the process. Thank you.

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: Thank you very much. We took care of the prejudice by raising the salaries of civil servants by USD40 and not USD4. In the country nearby, I was reading their memos and they increased civil servants' salaries by USD10 and I said, ‘Oh my God, we were doing a lot better here.’ Instead, we were even looking at salaries. We are looking at the salaries in South Africa. Amazingly, sometimes we complain about the level of salaries in Zimbabwe when our neighbours are not doing any better.

So, we took care of the necessary salary adjustments when we increased the salaries of civil servants by USD40. That is what you do. You have to provide an environment of certainty in how these taxes are laid out. The banks should be clear so that companies can plan and even the individuals who are paying these taxes can also plan. We cannot link it to the exchange rate which will call quite a lot of volatility in the market. We are asking companies to start focusing on the exchange rate to focus on their wage bill. I do not think that is workable. It will cause uncertainty. This is a more certain situation. I thank you.

HON. MUROMBEDZI: Thank you Hon. Chair. This Clause 4 which seeks to adjust the tax pay threshold to ZiG33 000 by the Hon. Minister, Hon. Chair, let us not pretend that this is a victory for workers. At the current inflation rate, this figure is peanuts. This is far below the total consumption of the poverty line. How do teachers, nurses, street vendors feed their families, pay school fees and meet transport costs with such income? This threshold is an insult. I demand that the Government adjust the threshold upfront to at least ZiG60 000 to reflect the real cost of living and then tie the threshold to quarterly inflation adjustments to protect workers from economic shocks.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you but I think it is better to recommend than to demand.

         HON. TOGAREPI: Thank you Chair.  Let us be very realistic when we are dealing with these issues where we have our part and industry and their workers or Government and their workers is another game altogether.  For me, I think there is an Hon. Member who is talking about the salary of civil servants compared with the ZiG33 000 and so forth.  Are we ignoring the USD component?  If it is still there, I do not think our workers are that disadvantaged as we put it.

         For me, I think it will cause a lot of chaos in the industry and economy if we try to tie it to the exchange rate.  Let those employers including the Government look at the circumstances of their workers, not from us who want to collect because I think what we want to achieve is different.  We are collecting as I said in the other debate that we are creating a culture of everyone paying tax but if we create a lot of distortion and projections, that will give problems to the industry.

         I think that we are giving them too much work to try and project what the exchange rate going to be in two months.  We give them too much work.  They will adjust the incomes of their workers based on the circumstances at that time.  Tax proposal by the Minister, let it remain as is.  There is a circumstance that we encourage the Government to relook at this.  Let it come in at the appropriate time but for now, let us not link the two. 

         It is a good proposal given our empathy or our responsibilities as MPs but let us also look at the ramifications of us linking the two and creating problems even more for the industry as they estimate inflation and try to adjust or project.  It will be a hotchpotch but for me, let us allow the Minister to proceed as he has proposed.  Should there be any need, I think let us look at it in the mid-term budget and see whether we would need to adjust.

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  I quite concur with the Government Chief Whip that if there is a need to make adjustments, then let us look at this at the mid-term to avoid this notion of linking it to the exchange rate instead of providing a more certain environment but also to say to Hon. Members that this is not meant to set wages.  I think I would see the confliction of wages.  We are setting here tax rates in terms of what would be paid regardless of the wage. 

So, these are two different issues.  We have forums for deciding on wages through the TNF forum.  The Joint Negotiating Committee of civil servants and then for the pilot sector, they got their equivalent as well.  This is a purely task tax matter as opposed to a wage-setting clause.  Thank you.

         HON. MUROMBEZI: I am hearing what the Hon. Minister is saying.  I am proposing that we meet half way.  He is saying the tax-free threshold 33 600, I propose 60 000.  I am re-proposing 60 000 as tax free threshold to the Hon. Minister.

         Hon. Madzivanyika having stood up to debate.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Member, we still have a long way to go.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  This is an important document.  Please allow us to share our views.  We are trying to convince the Minister because we are legislators. Our role is to represent the people and this is exactly what we are doing.

         I think we are not on the same page with the Minister.  We are not negotiating for improving salaries of employees here.  We are saying let what is due to me be what I should get.  Let me give you an example of a payroll or monthly tax bracket - 100USD is not taxed but if you get 101 USD you are taxed.  100 USD today at a rate of 28 is equal to ZiG2800.  If you are earning ZiG2 800 you are not taxed and that is fine because the amount in USD must be equivalent to ZiG.  No one is prejudiced…

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Hon. Member, you are repeating yourself…

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Allow me Hon. Chair. We are on a different page …

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Is it a new point?

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  I can see that we are not on the same page with the Hon. Minister.  That is why I want to put things into perspective.  The employee getting USD and the one earing ZiG are at the same place today.  Three days down the line, the exchange rate depreciates by 5% - it means the employee getting USD 100 is still okay but the employee who is getting ZiG assumes that the exchange rate is now 40 – it means he is now earning ZiG4000. 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  With all due respect, you raised that issue and you were answered.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  It appears you are now defending the Minister.  I am trying to put things here so that he understands where we are coming from. 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  You are repeating the same issue.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  The Minister is talking about TNF- we have never talked about TNF. I thought we were on a different page with the Minister. We are traying to convince the Minister and not the Chair.  That is my understanding.  I do not think I am wrong.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  You can convince and not repeat the same things.
         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  It appears we are on a different page with the Minister.  We want to make sure that we are on the same page.  That is why I am repeating so that we are clearly on the same page so that when you articulate your position, we will be coming from the same direction.

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: We have made so many demands that this Budget should be increased by ZiG100 000 000, this one by ZiG20 000 000 and we have been agreeing to this. I have been trying to accommodate. Where do you think the revenue will come from?

         HON. MUSHORIWA:  We will answer that…..

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  I have not recognised you Hon. Mushoriwa.

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Secondly, I mentioned the issue of consistency and providing an environment of certainty to companies so that they can plan their wage Bills.  That is what Clauses 4 and 5 are able to do for those companies.  We cannot link this to the exchange rate which will cause chaos.  I have already argued this point but my additional point is, where are we going to get the other revenue to support what we have approved under the Appropriation Bill?  Will these revenues and all hands on deck in terms of tax payments to be able to support the work of Government and the economy at large. 

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: I appreciate what the Minister has said that we need revenue but we do not get revenue whilst prejudicing others. A USD100 must be the equivalent in ZiG.  No one is prejudiced here.  Government will always collect the revenue that it is supposed to collect.   What I do not want is for the tax threshold to differ in ZiG and USD for the same person in this country. It is tantamount to discrimination.  Parliament should not be seen as an agent of discrimination.  We should be seen as agencies of promoting fairness and equity in this country. It is not an argument to say ‘where are we going to get the money? No.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  A person that earns 2800 which is paid into his bank.  You are supposed to pay IMMT 2% plus bank charges.  Let us calculate it at 2%.  From 2800 it goes to 2716. You will then want to go and buy your goods, you are charged 15 % VAT.  That brings about 407.  The net income of that lowly paid worker will now go back to ZiG2309.  Let us do the calculation for the one who has been given the USD 100 cash which money has been paid.  That person is not going to pay IMMT.  He is at an advantage compared to the one with ZiG.  The person with USD cash has got a leeway of possibly going to a tuck shop and buy goods using the USD at a reduced price because some of these tuck-shops do not charge VAT unlike the persons with ZiG if forced to go into a supermarket to swipe.  

This is key to the issues that affect our people on a day to day basis.  We really ask the hon. Minister to consider this.  He asked us how and where he will get the money, as we go through this Bill, we will be telling him where he needs to get more money.  I have done the calculations.  The amount that we are asking the Hon. Minister to forfeit is so minimum. It is actually 0.03% of the amount he was supposed to get from the PAYE.  It will not change much.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  With due respect Hon. Members, this is the last time that I will give to the Minister to respond.  We have to move.

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: I think the argument that I have heard pertains to the level of wages and not the level of taxation.  Again, I am sensing a confliction of issues between wages and taxation.  What we are trying to do here is to provide certainty rather than chaos.  Chaos will only arise from the proposals that they are making around linking these bands to exchange rates.  I have never heard of this in any economy, otherwise the companies have to start calculating their own exchange rates and will have difficulties projecting their wage bills.  This includes Government too.  I would like to keep it as is.

The Legal Counsel at the back has brought to my attention something that ought to be deleted in this Clause 4.  Clause 4 is hereby amended on page 7 between lines one and sixteen by deletion of paragraph (e). The whole of that paragraph (e) should be deleted, the reason being that it pertains to the issue I raised earlier on Special Economic Zones and we have decided to hold this in our bands while we do further consultations in trying to harmonise issues with ZIDA I thank you.

HON. MUROMBEDZI: I had proposed to meet halfway.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: I think he responded. It is not going to change anything, he responded.

         HON. MUROMBEDZI: No, he did not.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: I am the Chair, he responded.

         HON. MUROMBEDZI: Hon. Chairperson, we are staying up this late up to 2:00a.m to debate this.  This is for the people of Zimbabwe.  We are proposing to the Hon. Minister who is sitting there.  We did not stay up here so that you can treat us like this.  I propose to meet halfway for the tax threshold with the Hon. Minister.  He did not give a response.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: With due respect, I am just executing my powers, I feel this thing has been debated enough.

         HON. MUROMBEDZI: You are prejudicing us, he did not.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: I will ask the Minister to respond. The Minister is here to respond to the issue.

         HON. MUSHORIWA: The Minister proposed to delete, I just want him to explain to us.  You said you want to delete from line one to which line?

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: I said that we delete the whole of paragraph E under Clause 4.  That pertains to Special Economic Zones which we are holding in abeyance. Thank you Hon. Mushoriwa, I hope that is clear.

         Then in terms of the proposal to meet halfway as I said my stance is we should not change Clause 4 and its tabular form which is Clause 5 because I believe that it provides clarity and certainty as is. I thank you.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: I have noted that the Hon. Minister has moved to repeal paragraph 4 (e) which talks about Special Economic Zones particularly to deal with the income.  Is the Minister saying that he is repealing the whole issue to do with Special Economic Zones because if he then also speaks to 4 (a) (i) and (ii) or else just restricting himself to the income from employment from employees who are working in the special economic zone area.  Maybe clarification is important on that one.

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: I think Hon. Madzivanyika is correct Chairperson.  I think by deleting paragraph 4 (e) we should also delete that 4 (a).  I am just going to look back to see if the Counsel agrees with this.  Chairperson. So, the question is, should we return 4 (a) (i) and (ii) if we have deleted 4 (e). - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]-

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Mushoriwa you should speak through the Chair.

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: Thank you very much. The legal advice is that we should also delete lines 25 to 27 on page 6 of the Bill which pertains to 4 (a) on definition for Special Economic Zones. I thank you for raising it Hon. Madzivanyika.

         Amendment to Clause 4 put and agreed to.

         Clause 4, as amended, put and agreed to.

         Clause 5 put and agreed to.

         On Clause 6:

         HON. MUSHORIWA: Yes, there is debate. Our position is that the 10% taxation of the winning on the sporting bets needs to be amended further. I am going to propose that the rate of 10% of each dollar of the gross winning exceeding a USD500 should be taxed. The proposal is to say that the 10% should be applicable to earnings of more than USD500. Ordinarily, when a person ends up winning, normally the person would have invested a lot. They would have lost quite a number of bets. So, USD500 will be my recommendation in respect to this.

         Alternatively, the other option is to just increase on (a), the taxation on the bookmaker rather than the poor person from Kwayedza in Dzivarasekwa who is hopping to just get USD2 to buy a loaf of bread for his family. That is my proposal Chair.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you Hon. Chair. I also propose that if the Minister is not taking on board the proposal by Hon. Mushoriwa, can the Minister also take into account a deduction arising from the expenditure that this punter faces before winning in a month. What it means is that on the 28^th November, for example I made a bet and I win USD2000, before charging a withholding tax of 10% on the gross income that I got, the Minister should also consider the expenditure that I suffered. If I had put USD500 trying to win and lose, in the interest of justice, that must be allowed as a deduction before the 10% is withheld. I submit.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Thank you Hon. Chair. I thank the Hon. Members for their input. The input that we should take into account the expense, how much is invested in the first place on the back of that winning by the book maker or the punter, basically when we thought through this tax, we did some research and found out that all you do is just impose what you think is reasonable and here we are guided by what other countries have done regardless of the investment made  by the person who is doing the bet. This is investment agnostic, the choice of the 10% is investment agnostic. We made reasonably low that we do not think there is any need to take into account the initial amount invested.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you Hon. Chair. I am glad that the Hon. Minister is saying he has got research from other countries. That is very correct but I think if you look Hon. Minister, our circumstances as Zimbabwe are a bit different from the United States, for example in the sense that if you look in the United States, the majority of people who enter this betting business or this betting hobby are average income earners. Unlike our situation, if you go to any betting hall, I challenge the Hon. members who are here  from the constituencies where they come from, I am sure those who have entered into a betting house will realise that the people who are inside the betting house, the majority of them are very poor to such an extent that as much as you have got literature from other countries, we should also understand our current circumstances, to cushion those who are not working. The majority of them are unemployed. That is my suggestion but we understand that we tailor-made this taxation to suit our currency circumstances.

         HON. TOGAREPI: Thank you Chairman for giving me this opportunity. Betting in other countries, who are taxing punters, it is a tax to try and prohibit or to move people from the habit because it is not helpful to the poor. It actually destroys those who are involved in betting. It is like a tax that we tax those who take beer or other luxurious but dangerous habits. This is one of the dangerous habits where people are involved in betting and destroy themselves. I would say the 10%, let us talk about a person who takes a bus from Budiriro to town and go into Edgars to buy, will Edgars consider that this guy or Government will consider that because he board a bus to town to buy a dress, so he must not pay the sales tax in full because he had a cost to come to town to buy?

         I am saying that if you are talking about betting, somebody can lose USD150, USD100 per week and one week he then wins USD500. It is at that stage that lump sum win is the duchess. If he wins USD10, he pays a dollar and if he wins USD500, he pays USD50 progressively. My major point is, betting is a habit that we must discourage. We must never measure that it can change positively the lives of our poor people if they go betting.

In fact, tax must prohibit them from doing that. So, the 10% is moderate if we compare with other countries. Poor people are not found in Zimbabwe alone. Go to countries around us, you can get the poorest of the poor that you cannot compare with our own people. I am not saying our people are better off all of them. We have challenges and people have challenges but we have the poorest of the poorest in some of the countries that you think are better off than us. They cannot promote those habits in order to help the poor people. Hon. Minister, look for money through taxing, those who are betting so that you look after those who create a habit of going to bet when they are poor and create a fund to then look after those who are disadvantaged.   

HON. S. SAKUPWANYA: Thank you Hon. Chair. I have noticed that this clause speaks to sports betting. Obviously, sports betting, as was alluded to before, mainly touches on those who come from low-income households. There is another form of betting that we have not talked about. And maybe it is wise that we include betting in its totality, inclusive of those in casinos. I say so because those especially who bet at casinos, a lot of them are high-income earners.

The amounts that are bet at such casinos, which have popped up quite much over the years, are high amounts that are bet. A lot of them are also from foreign nationals, especially those from Asia. So, I feel strongly that if we extend this tax, especially to that particular field, you will get a significant amount that comes to the tax base and you are not targeting those of low-income tax threshold. I so submit.

HON. BAJILA: Thank you so much, Chairperson. Let me start my contribution by saying I have worked in the betting industry before. One of the most popular sayings in that industry is that if you want to become a millionaire from betting, you must start when you are a billionaire, ultimately, you will be a millionaire. I say this to agree partly that trying to eke a living out of gambling is not sustainable on its own and also, to say taxing people is not a deterrent.

In the betting company that I worked for, it had branches in numerous African countries. The one that was doing tax, which I interacted with, was the Federal Republic of Nigeria, which was taking 1% of winnings. The others were not, Tanzania, Kenya, Zambia, Rwanda and Zimbabwe were not. At least those that I interacted with.

However, the Republic of Nigeria, despite the taxation, still had high people participating in there. All I am trying to say is that tax will not be sufficient as a deterrent. If we could have a deterrent, there are numerous measures out there to minimise people from becoming gambling addicts. There could be a system of ensuring that no one registers with this number of punters and no one gambles or bets up to this much. The Government has a lot of infrastructure within it to use.

So, in my view, taking as much as 10% of winnings is a lot because our people are getting into this gambling because they are already poor. They are already suffering. That is why, if you discover, the company I worked for had its headquarters in the UK, did one betting house in the UK and here in Africa, did a lot. The reason why they are coming down this side is because people are already poor and people are looking for opportunities. So, because these people are already poor, they are prone to those who sell opportunities. For us to then chase after them...

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Bajila, let us not debate, just give us proposals.

HON. BAJILA: Thank you for the guidance Chairperson. My proposal is that let us reduce the 10% to 5%. I thank you.

HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: Hon. Chairperson, what we are trying to advocate for in this House is not for the Minister not to get tax.  We are simply trying to motivate him to look for tax where there is money. This sports betting that we are talking about, is a survival strategy for citizens who do not have jobs. So, for us to then go for the poor in that manner, which is why some of us had suggested that why not tax betting companies more, the companies that are getting money daily as opposed to going to these poor people? If you go to the sports betting queues and look at the people that will be in those queues, you will understand what we are talking about. These are people, who do not have money, these are people who are looking for survival.

So please, let us not push the poor…

HON. J. TSHUMA: On a point of order! My point of order is that the Hon. Member is not putting it correctly. We have millions of people in Zimbabwe but the number of people that are doing betting is so much – [HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: That is not a point of order, with all due respect. If you want to debate, ask to debate.] -  the Hon. Member must not mislead…

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Hlatywayo, you speak through the Chair.  I thought you were very much aware that when other Members are on the floor, you give them a chance. You are now trying to be the Chair yourself, which is not correct.

I am going to revert back to you but let him speak first and finish.

HON. J. TSHUMA:  Thank you Hon. Chair. My point of order was that the Hon. Member is misleading the House in terms of the people that go to bet and the reasons why they bet. A lot of people are out there selling wares using their money to stock up and do everything. So, she must not mislead the House.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Hlatywayo, I want you to continue but let us understand that some of the people if you go to the casinos, there are millionaires who go to bet there. So, it is wrong to say that only poor people go to bet.

HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: So, the point that I was making Hon. Chair, I still maintain, that is my view. I think I am allowed to debate. If there is anyone who has a contrary view, they should also debate.

I am of the view that sports betting is for the poor. The point that I am making is that let us not continue squeezing the poor and the proposal that I have made is that let us tax the betting companies that are collecting money from these poor people, rather than going for these poor people. Thank you.

*HON. MAPIKI: Thank you Hon. Chair. As we were debating on the amount of money to be allocated, people were suggesting high figures. I am now surprised that where will the Minister get the funds? The type of betting that is being debated here is that from those thugs from Mbare. So, Minister, do not be pushed by these people who are indicating the left side and then going to the right side. Kindly stick to that Minister and proceed. I thank you.

         HON. MALINGANISO:  Thank you Hon. Chair.  Let me underscore that paying tax should be a culture for everybody, rich or poor – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -  That said, I propose that the bookmaker’s tax probably be increased from 3% to 8% to cushion the ones that are being labelled as poor.  So, we reduce the 10% to 5%, that is my proposal. If we do so, we will achieve the same goal, the same amount of money and end debate.  I submit.

         HON. MUTSEYAMI:  Thank you Mr. Chairman.  Mr. Chairman, specifically on the betting.  Hon. Minister, I am not agreeable with regard to the 10%. I am proposing say we peg the money to say if one who is betting gets a thousand, we start taxing the one who has won USD1000.00.  Then when we talk of USD1000.00 on that USD1000.00 then he is taxed maybe 5%.  We have a threshold of those who are betting to have a certain figure where we would start to have a tax.  So, I am proposing USD1000.00 upwards or say USD500.00 upwards.  Anything less than USD500.00 is not liable to tax.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  Thank you very much. I thank the Hon. Members for their contributions. I have listened to the contributions regarding perhaps that we should increase the bookmakers' tax, maybe reduce the punters' tax.  But look, for a start, this is considered a sin tax in the first place. When you are committing a sin, it is a sin whether it is in small or large quantities. – [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] -

So, really to start setting maybe thresholds of committing sins, say there is a USD1000.00 threshold, I am not so sure that we are communicating that message clearly.  It is a sin tax; it remains a sin tax and I believe that the way we have structured it is the way to go. Besides the bookmaker, if they are properly registered, they are already a corporate and they should be paying corporate tax as well.  So, this 3% is in addition to the corporate tax that they should be paying unless you are not registered.  So, I feel that the structure of this tax is fair as a sin tax. A sin is a sin regardless of the depth of the sinful offence. I thank you.

Chair, there is one issue that I forgot. I need to be allowed to add this to complete my response.  I agree with the Hon. Member who said that perhaps we should just say it is betting rather than just sports betting.  So, we remove the word ‘sports’ from that paragraph 6 (b). It is all betting. I thank you.

Amendment to Clause 6 put and agreed to

Clause 6, as amended, put and agreed to.

On Clause 7:

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  Thank you Hon. Chair.  Yes, this seeks to amend Section 22 (p) of the Finance Act.  However, I have been reading, I am not seeing where the amendment is. It appears the wording is just the same.  There was no change, the per centum is still 1%. It is on the lithium, black granite, quarry stones and cut or uncut dimensional stones.  I am not seeing where the Hon. Minister wants to amend. May he please enlighten me, maybe I made an oversight.

I referred to Section 22 (p), the old Finance Act and referred to this amendment and could not see where exactly the need for amendment is coming from.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you wanted to raise Hon. Mushoriwa?

HON. MUSHORIWA: No, I also wanted to go further Chair. I was actually, because in the spirit of raising revenue, I was going to suggest that there should be an amendment there. Instead of saying 1 per centum, we say 2%.  In fact Chair, you will note and I think the Hon. Minister will recall the previous debate we had pertaining to this issue.

I would have said 10% but I think 5% would be fine and I think the people from Mutoko, where black granite is mined, will understand when you go and see what has actually been happening.  So generally, 5% of the gross value, if they sell within Zimbabwe or export, I think is a good thing. I also think that the Hon. Minister will agree with me that we need to raise as much revenue as possible to fund our demands that we have passed through the Appropriation Bill. I thank you.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  Thank you very much. Hon. Chair, this Clause 7 seeks to amend the legislation to the extent that the 1% levy on specified minerals be payable in the currency in which the mineral is sold.

So that is to say, if lithium or black granite or quarry stones and cut or uncut dimensional stones are sold in local or foreign currency, the levy would be collected in the currency thereof. That is what we are seeking to do, to amend that. However, I hear a proposal that we increase the 1% perhaps to as much as 5%.  I am willing to go along with 2% Chair, so I propose 2%. I thank you.

HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: Thank you so much. I just wanted to refer to our previous conversations. It is, you know, tax justice.  I want to make a point on tax justice and say, if we want to raise revenues for the various votes that we appropriated, we need to be getting more money from the sectors that do have the money and to my point, that we do not need to be going to ordinary citizens that much.  We need to go where the money is. I want to associate with his contribution. If we need money, let us go for 5%.

We must not go back to 2%, let us go to 5%. I fail to understand why the Hon. Minister is doing bidding on behalf of those that are in the mining sector. If we really want revenues to support our National Budget, let's go for 5%.  Thank you.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much Hon. Hlatywayo.  I thought you were also bidding on behalf of some other people.

HON. ENG. MHANGWA:  Thank you Chair. Yes, I am in agreement that there is so much scope in the mining sector to get royalties tax but I am an advocate for balancing between wanting to get tax and making it viable under the circumstances. Inasmuch as there is advocacy for a jump to 5%, I think it is a bit too much for a sector that is reeling under challenges. Global prices have not been so high for most commodities. The second thing that is happening is the environment to the energy concerned, et cetera, the cost of doing business is not as low at it is. We are fighting for the same markets with others within the region. It is best that if we are to jump, we move to 2% and not 5%. This is my proposal.

HON. BAJILA:  Thank you Chair. A few minutes ago, an Hon. Member said paying tax should become part of our culture and I think he was right. Our culture includes mining. People in the mining sector must consider paying tax to be part of their culture. Chair, if we are going to say, if you sell chicken and chips, we want more tax from you but if you get our minerals, we want less tax from you, we are clearly not putting our priorities right as a country. If you are to bet on whether or not this one is going to swim faster than that one, we will tax you more but if you mine our natural resources, we will tax you less. Clearly, we are not putting our priorities right. We are not seeing really where our money is. Our money is underground. Let us follow the tax underground. Therefore, I propose that we go to 5% Chair.

*HON. MAPIKI:  Thank you Chair. If we look at the problems that are being created by miners in our rural areas, I would suggest that 5% is good. We were actually proposing for 7% so that the 5% will be directed to Government and 2% will benefit the areas. In rural areas they are using what we call heap leaching, therefore, 5% is okay.

HON. TOGAREPI:  I totally agree with Members in proposing an adjustment to the tax but of course 5%, for a start Minister, 3% and progressively go up to 5%. We cannot go up to 5% but as a proposal, maybe you have a reason why we should stick to 3% but we are trying to get as much as we can from mining because we are losing so much from the mining companies.  I do not think they disclose that much of everything that they are taking away from this country. We need the money to build this country and I think Minister, the 2% I do not know what informs you, I am not aware that deep. Just as a win-win, we do not go to 5% as my colleagues are proposing but if you ask me privately, I would still insist on 5%. For now, I would say, go for 3% so that we are not harsh.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  Thank you Chair. I had to go to back to consult because something was bothering me about this Clause but I think my questions have been answered. What this 1% is, which we are saying should be paid in the currency of trade. That was the nature of the amendment. You recall colleagues that 1% community levy, that where we said those mining lithium, granite, quarry stones and ornamental stones should pay a 1% levy to the community. So the community so that the community benefits from mineral that they produce for this company or made available to this company.

My worry now is, if we are now increasing to 3% and other percent, which by the way I was also beginning to agree with until I said, let me check, something is bothering me. If we do that, these companies are also paying the royalty as well and they also pay corporate tax if they are profitable. I am afraid that the tax burden maybe heavy. I propose that we introduce the 1% tax, let us work together with the Committee on Mines and Mining Development, let us together, follow up and see that companies are complying and if it is being collected. How much is going into the community? I think that is important.

I think that has been clarified for me. If we have the 1%, the royalty, the corporate tax, all being imposed on the company. It is quite a bit. If we increase this beyond the 1%, it may just be too heavy. That is my feeling. I think let us go through a phase of evaluation and then we can come back maybe next year and deal with it. I thank you.

*HON. TOBAIWA:  Thank you Chair. Minister, we are understanding the tax which you are talking of but if we look at what the mines are doing and the amounts which they are declaring, they are not the exact figures that they are benefiting. Let us avoid continuously burdening the citizens. The citizens are not benefiting anything from those mines. Let us just stick to 5%. They are damaging the environment and we are now burdening even councils to repair the roads.

*HON. MUNEMO:  I would like to support the previous Hon. Member. If we look at our minerals down there, we do not know the quantity of the minerals that we have. If we say 1%, what is it that they are benefiting and how much are they extracting? Why are we being so lenient to them, yet we are taxing the locals on high percentages.  It was better for us to move from 1% to 5%. Why are we being so patient? That is the reason why you see other miners smuggling gold outside the country. If we do not have good relations with them and there is nothing we are benefiting from, I think 5% is good. In fact, we are suggesting more 5% because they are extracting all our minerals and if we exhaust all of them, we will not have any extras.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Members, I am sure you have heard what the Minister has said that the 1% is towards the locals and there are some other taxes which are paid by these companies. Let us be clear.

^*HON. BUTAU: Hon. Chair it is only Africa which still have mineral resources. We have an inferiority complex and low self-esteem as a country. These investors do not have anywhere to go they really need our resources and this is our time not to do a mistake just like what happened in India whereby they consume everything. If you go to Mbire, Guruve those nice roads are all damaged by people who are extracting minerals there. The 5% is actually lenient. People are being attacked by those investors. There are no funds to repair the damaged roads we do not have to pity anyone lets us just take 5% and Hon. Minister do not be lenient to them they need our resources. I thank you.

HON. DR. MUTODI: Thank you Chair. I think from the Minister’s explanation this is a tax in addition to other taxes that are being levied on mining companies. The explanation is such that there is 24% on profit and there is also 5% royalty, so this 1% is an additional tax and it makes an aggregate of 30% on the mining company. So maybe it may scare away the mining investors and then bring us back again to a situation we do not have anyone. So, I suggest that we make a compromise maybe go up to 2% for the community tax.

*HON. NYANDORO: Thank you Madam Chair for recognising me. I would like to have an understanding on us as a Government, our priority should be on our citizens. Yes, we have investors we need them but why is that we are being so lenient to them. They are coming from their countries as investors to source our resources. So out of all the minerals that we have we do not have anything to show for it because those investors are coming to collect. Some will say they are extracting gold only but they will be extracting more than one mineral. 5% should go somewhere else and if they do not want, we will do something with our resources. I thank you.

HON.  J. TSHUMA: Thank you very much Madam Chair. I think I am now also very convinced that these people that come to mine are getting away with a lot of murder. For example I saw an article where someone who was mining coal after they processed those sands they got over 90 kgs of gold from the coal mining which means that  someone is fooling someone somewhere. I think Hon. Minister 5% is a bit too little let us go even to 10% because these people are leaving a trail of destruction behind. I have got a miner in my constituency called Davis Granite they are busy blasting there for granite and people’s houses are cracking. When I approached them to say come let us a corporate social responsibility, they actually started throwing me around as if I am a fool. So I want them to now pay in a legal manner which is legalised through a Parliamentary Bill so that come and rehabilitate the areas where we live so 10% to me is fair. After all our strong fundamental if we are running a company and we make a profit of 15% is good enough. So, I heard an Hon. Member saying that their tax is coming up to 30% so if we add another 5 to 10% on top it is still going to be a viable business, they will still be making money but the environment will also be protected and our people will live better off from there.

HON. MALINGANISO: Thank you Madam Chair. Having cognisance that these miners are paying royalties as the Minister alluded to. They are also paying corporate tax I think we should also be reasonable that we need to create an environment conducive for business. These miners also help the nation by employing our citizens. I think it is prudent that we agree with the Minister. All along it was 1% towards the community what I might want clarity on Hon. Minister is who receives and administers the funds that are going to the community. I thank you.

HON. MUROMBEDZI: Thank you very much. I wish to put across to this House that we really need to look at this carefully. We are being duped by some of these investors. To put things into perspective Rio Tinto alone invested 5 billion recently into lithium because lithium as we move on to the green revolution it is the in thing. So, we cannot afford to have our communities being paid 1% yet these people have extractive behaviour in our communities if we go there. I am actually in agreement with the previous speaker that it should be 10% to our communities considering that lithium is the in thing and this House really need to know the world figures that are going around in the lithium market. We will be doing ourselves injustice if we reduce it to below 10%. I so submit.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Members I think we have exhausted this clause because it is now repetition. Do we have something which is burning, something that has not been said?

HON. ENG. MHANGWA: Thank you. The tendency is we may take a populist action. When CSR is coming it is indexed on the tenth and the industry that we are talking about is an industry that ordinarily is a very vulnerable sector. I will give an example PGMs over the last period was doing so well but just because people are now recycling the catalytical converters in cars. All of a sudden, the platinum industry was hit so hard. It is an industry where we invest not that we are taking those that have just come now our friends from the East. Ordinarily it is an industry that you invest for 30 to 50 years in the long horizon. The margins are not like retail so if you take the South African example CSR is 2% and with that 2% the miners even complain it is a bit high. The other percentages Hon. Mutodi spoke about they are percentages that are linked to profit. It is an index where there is so much cost over long period of time so when we are putting a percentage for CSR what is critical is to consider that the industry is not like our normal retail sector. We may choke the cow that gives us milk in the process. It is my plea that we be guided by research, we be guided by trends the world over so that we do not do things that will jeopardise the industry that we have that gives us the prospects of being a successful country.  It is my proposal but if we are to push further, then it will be 2% of CSR.  The key point is, this CSR,  is it ring-fenced that it benefits the community because these are the ones that are being targeted?

Instead of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, there should be a way that the local communities are the ones that benefit primarily from this proposed levy.

HON. MUSHORIWA: Thank you Chair, I just want to dispel the calculation on the issue of the corporate tax and other staff that goes to 30%.  The truth of the matter is that most of these mining companies are actually declaring losses.  My proposal is simple, if we are so desperate and we want them to get away with murder, the best thing is let us maintain the 5% then we could probably if we so wish, they have said that out of the 5%, 3% of that is deductible when we consider the corporate tax.  I can tell you first and foremost, these companies have to pay. Even from Dzivarasekwa where they do the bricks and the quarry, we know what they are getting, they are getting a lot and most of them  actually tell you that they are making losses. 

We will just get 5%, it is too little. So Hon. Minister, if the worst comes to the worst, 5% for the community, 5% royalty and if so, with 3% out of the 5% may be deductible from the corporate tax should they wish but money has to come into our pockets.

HON. DR. KHUPE: My motivation for the 5% which is being opposed by other Hon. Members is that these companies have been mining lithium, platinum, granite and quarry stone for a long time and they have not been ploughing back to the communities.  However, I think it is important that we meet in the middle and I will propose to the Minister that at least we go for the 3% like what the Government Chief Whip said.  We review after six months to see whether we should go back to 1% or we should go to 5 or 10 percent, this is my proposal.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Allow me to thank the Hon. Members for their contributions because the current rate is 1% for these minerals that are listed here.  I think the more I listen to the arguments from the Hon. Members such as Hon. Mhangwa, Hon. Mutodi and others, I am willing that we consider two percent.  I am also concerned that if we go above that, I think given what Hon. Mhangwa said that in the region, South Africa which typically have got very good regulation environment and then suddenly we out-compete ourselves, they out-compete us in fact by charging much higher CSR levies. 

We may just drive away investment in the face of declining commodity prices. I propose that we do 2% for now but let us focus on the collection and deployment of this 2% into the communities where the resources came from.  Besides Hon. Chair, the local authorities in which these minerals are sourced should be imposing their own levies as well in terms of the Rural Councils Act.  They should be imposing levies and if they are not, they will start doing so.  So what we have now is two types of levies; one imposed by the rural authority for the benefit of the local community and then this 2% charged through the ZIMRA processes at a national level.  It also goes towards the community.  There is quite a bit that is going back if we really apply our minds properly.  Let us focus on execution and implementation then we will also review to see who is complying, where are the challenges if we need to increase then we could increase it.  Let us not have a big jump because it will just signal that perhaps we are not as open for business as we claim to be. 

Amendments to Clause 7 put and agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, put and agreed to.

On Clause 8:

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you Madam Chair, I am not a specialist in mining but as an Hon. Member, I need clarity.  Clause 8 seeks to insert Section 22 (q) to the Finance Act which actually talks about the issue of the way which royalties on minerals are going to be determined in accordance with Chapter 7 of the same Finance Act.  When I read Chapter 7 of the Finance Act, I realised that royalties are determined differently on precious minerals, particularly on gold.  Gold produced by small scale miners, if they are delivered by the holder of a gold buying agent permit, they are charged 1% royalties.

The same gold, if it is produced by small scale miners but if the gold is delivered to a hold of the gold dealing licence which brings an excess of 0.5 kgs, then they are charged 2% royalties.  The same gold produced by other miners who are not small or not being delivered by the gold dealing licence as well as gold buying agency pay 5%. 

The gold realised from big established companies pay 3%.  I want to understand - does this not create arbitrage Hon. Chair?  If I am a large company who is entitled to pay royalties to the tune of 5% according to this law, let us say I have got 3kg, can I not use those small scale to sell my gold at a rate of 1%? Why is there such kind of differences?  Does not it create opportunity for arbitrage?

         HON. MUSHORIWA:  Madam Chair, I also want to add onto 22(r), research and sale value of certain fast foods.  If you check the definition of specified fast food, it says pizza, burger, hot-dog, shawarma, French fries, chicken, doughnut or any other food of a substantially similar nature of a description to be prescribed by regulations made for this purpose. I just do not understand because this is too wide a definition and this is supposed to start from 1 January 2025.  I am just wondering even when it comes to the regulations that seek to be prescribed whether they will be done before 31^st December 2024.  I say so primarily when you talk of a doughnut for instance, it is in the same category with things like scones, muffins et cetera.  So, I am thinking that if you go there, you will probably extend it to cookies and further down you will even end up on biscuits and other stuff.  I am not so sure whether this wide definition is what the Minister intended but I do think that we may have a major challenge as we go by. 

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  On the same issue of fast food tax, I understand that the Minister, in his budget statement, introduced a surcharge of 0.5% on paragraph 570 of the National Budget Statement.  Consequently, in this Finance Bill the Minister has amended it to 1%.  Is this his intention or it was just a mistake?  Then on plastic carrier bags there is the intention to introduce Section 22 (s) to the Finance Act, which talks about 20% tax on the plastic carrier bag sale value.  I do not have a problem with the 20% on the cost, insurance and freight suffered by the importer of plastic carrier bags, which is a huge amount unlike the seller who sells one carrier bag for 10 cents.  When you buy the plastic bags in large quantities as an importer, the cost, insurance and freight will be so huge.  Then when you are selling them from your warehouse you get another 20% charge, I think that is double taxation and tantamount to punishment.

HON. SHAMU:  I have a request for some clarification.  We are talking of fast foods where the operator has added value.  We are talking of miners where the extractors have added no value to the raw material.  I would really want to understand the basis and decision that you are getting at of putting these two together as if we are talking of products with the same characteristics.  The miner is being allowed to extract and take raw materials out of this country.  The Zimbabwean who goes to a local food outlet to buy a finished product whilst no value addition is spoken about in this whole process,  I would want to understand where we are coming from and what we are trying to do?

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMEN AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  I thank the Hon. Members for their contributions and comments.  I will start with Hon. Madzivanyika on the issue of mining royalties.  That paragraph 22 (q) which is being inserted, speaks to the reclassification of the royalty as a tax but it is silent on pricing because it is not about pricing.  So, you are correct that arbitrage might arise when it comes to pricing but that is not what we are attacking here.  We are just attacking the issue of the classification of the royalty as a tax which is meant to advantage the tax payer because the Commissioner can be flexible in terms of imposing penalties.  The issue of this arbitrage is really something for a different forum or time and it is an issue of concern wherever we come across it.  Then on the definition of fast foods, that perhaps this is too wide and will regulations be ready by January?  Yes, the regulations will be ready by 1^st January 2025.  They are already being worked on and I have seen some drafts in anticipation of a successful debate.  The definition will not be wide because those regulations are quite tight in the sense that we are trying to find some products which heavily mirror what we have on that list, which is very specific.  It will not go at a tangent but it will be tight in terms of trying to find what could be a close substitute of any of those so that we close some loopholes.  On increasing the levy from 0.5% to 1%, the 1% was proposed in the august House by the Budget and Finance Committee that debated on it the very first time.  So, I accepted it and then I proposed and that is what we have in the Bill. 

On plastic carrier bags, you can see what we are trying to do.  If the bags are produced locally the withholding tax is payable to the manufacturer so that we avoid any double taxation.  But if the manufacturing is done locally, we are also taking other things into account such as job creation being a case in point and perhaps even corporate tax payable out of profits.  However, if you are then to go out of your way to import these bags from wherever and bring them into the country.  If you have done that then clearly, we need to be discouraging that and that is why we are encouraging cost, insurance and freight value.  It is on the back of the CIF price of the commodities.  This signals that there is some displeasure when you go out of your way to import a product that is going to damage the environment and lives potentially.  Basically there is a sin tax argument built in there.

         Let me now turn to the questions by Hon. Shamu that in fast foods, there is value addition and for the miners, there is no value addition. I think that these two items are not comparable in the sense that for fast foods, the issue we are dealing with is the fact that these fast foods can cause NCDs. What we are trying to do is to strengthen our health system ahead of time so that should they fall ill from these NCDs, the system is ready to accommodate their medical needs with the resources. That is why we are raising resources for that. It is a sin tax.

         The other tax is a community responsibility tax where we are saying look, you have mined from this community and they need to benefit from these resources. In addition to what you are already paying as a miner to the local authority, you must pay an additional 2% so that the benefit to the community is increased and is more visible and tangible. So, there are two different things which are not quite comparable; one is a health issue and the other is an equity issue in terms of extracting something for the community.

         HON. SHAMU: Hon. Minister, you talked about health issues on pizza and so forth and you tell me that when it comes to our minerals, we are talking of equity. Really, are we being serious because the issue of value addition is a very important aspect that I think plays a very big role in the revolution process of this country. When we talk about fast foods, we have actually added value. There are health systems that are applied by Government to ensure that anybody who is involved in the production of food outlets must maintain certain health facilities and I cannot see how this process contributes to provision of health provision to the nation. There is a serious contradiction Hon. Minister and I think we need to examine this process seriously. Tiri kubira vanhu vedu. Hupfumi hwedu huri kuenda takatarisa on the basis of - we just need to realise one percent and then we talk about fast foods and minerals, iye zvino ave makomba all over the country. We have some who …

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, Hon. Shamu. The Minister has already responded.

         HON. SHAMU: He has not responded fully to satisfy me.

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: I am very happy to respond Hon. Shamu. This paragraph here is silent on beneficiation. Beneficiation is dealt elsewhere. We already have a policy to say no minerals will be exported un-beneficiated. If you do, there is a heavy penalty on it. That is already covered and in addition to that we are saying, even if you do not export the mineral and it is sold locally, we want another 2% which we can give back to the community. So, both the beneficiation and CSR aspect apply. This is really just about CSR and not beneficiation but beneficiation still applies. I hope I have provided additional comfort to Hon. Shamu. I think we are getting a fair share, if not we will keep improving.

         Clause 8 put and agreed to.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: With due respect, I think we have stretched enough and we have that desire to serve our country but I think we are exhausted. We promise to come in the afternoon but we have to take some rest and then we will finish it off. That is my suggestion with due respect to everything. 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Madzivanyika, I heard what you said but let us proceed.

         On Clause 9:

         HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: The issue that was raised by Hon. Madzivanyika, we need it to be addressed. You cannot just say we have heard your issue without addressing us because we are tired. This is 3.10 am.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, Hon. Hlatywayo. We have suspended Standing Orders.

         HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: But we get tired.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: You will have to speak on your behalf, not on behalf of everyone else.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Is there an objection to what I have said. If there is an objection then we can continue.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: We are proceeding Hon. Madzivanyika.

         HON. MUSHORIWA: On a point of order. The Hon. Minister is in the House. When a proposal is actually done by a Member, the Hon. Minister has actually indicated. What we are doing is nation building and we do not just simply say we have to do things and force things to happen. Just look at the benches, most people have gone and the few that are here, some are actually sleeping. We are prepared to come here at 1415 hours and continue with business. The Minister had actually proposed initially, so let him answer to what we are saying as he is the mover of the motion.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Is there a seconder to what has been proposed?

         HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: I second.

         Motion put and negatived.

         Clauses 9 and 10 put and agreed to.

         On Clause 11:

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: I would like to move that everything has passed. No more debate, everything has passed from Clause 10 onwards because you have to respect us. We are not machines. Please respect us. Everything is passed.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Hon. Madzivanyika, order. We do not operate like that.

         *HON. BATITSA: On a point of order. We are all exhausted. Since we started, others are actually dozing off. Kindly break so that we start from there and proceed.

         HON. TOGAREPI: We agree that everybody gets tired but like one Hon. Member has mentioned, the seats are empty because those who were tired showed by leaving the House. So, if Members feel they want to rest, that we respect but we want to proceed and do this business because we have time to complete. We recognise that people get tired but those who are resilient, let us do the national duty…

         HON. MUROMBEDZI:  Point of order Madam Chair. 

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: What is your point of order?

         HON. MUROMBEDZI: Madam Chai, with due respect.  The actual theme for this budget is ‘building resilience for sustained economic transformation’. 

         We have been seating here 13 hours in a row. There is nothing to build when we have been seating that long. There is nothing to understand…

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Order, Hon. Murombedzi!  Those who are tired can leave the House. – [HON. MADZIVANYIKA: On a point of Order Madam Chair.] - We are not going to tolerate any more points of order – [HON. MADZIVANYIKA: No quorum Madam Chair.] – We are proceeding, you are disturbing the House – [HON. MADZIVANYIKA: No quorum Madam Chair.] -  There is a quorum, you are disturbing the House – [HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Let us verify, there is no quorum Madam Chair.] -    Hon. Madzivanyika, put yourself to order, we want to proceed -you are wasting time.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: I am raising a pertinent procedural issue here.  There is no quorum, let us count and verify whether it is true or not.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  We have ascertained there is quorum.  Please stop disturbing the Business of the House – [HON. MADZIVANYIKA: No, the Business of the day cannot proceed without quorum. This is a procedural issue.] -  Hon. Madzivanyika, I am going to ask you to leave the House for disturbing the Business of the House – [HON. MADZIVANYIKA: What is wrong with my point of order Madam Chair?] –

         Clause 11 put and agreed to.  – [HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: Point of order.] – We are not entertaining any more point of orders – [HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: Point of order.] – You are disturbing the House – [HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: Point of order.] – What is your point of order?

         HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: Allow me to say what I want to say and then you hear what I will say.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERON:  You may proceed.

         HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: Thank you Madam Speaker. We are saying we are tired and we want to go and rest – [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] –

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: Speak on your behalf.

         HON. G. K. HLATYWAYO: The National Budget is too important a subject for us to debate whilst we are tired unless if you just want to tick the boxes [HON. MEMBERS: If you are tired you can move out.]

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: A point of no quorum has been raised; I direct that the bells be rung.

         [Bells rungs].

         Notice having been taken that there being present fewer than 70 Hon. Members, the bells were rung for Seven Minutes and a quorum now being present, THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON ordered the House to proceed at Twenty Minutes past Three o’clock a.m.

         HON. MUROMBEDZI: Thank you very much Madam Chair.  You had called on the Clause 11 replaced by Clause 15, is that so?  Thank you Madam Chair.  Madam Chair, requiring 50% of mineral royalty is to be paid in kind is short sighted and problematic especially for small scale miners who are the backbone of our mining sector. 

They cannot comply with this burdensome requirement. Therefore, I would like to ask the Hon. Minister to reduce the royalty burden on the small scale miners so that we strengthen the formal trade channels in order to combat smuggling and ensure miners get their fair share of market prices.  I so submit.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  I do not think I understand the nature of that question or intervention.  Could she clarify further?  Where is the challenge?  What is the difficult?

         HON. MUROMBEDZI:  Thank you.  This Clause is actually asking the 50% of mineral royalties to be paid in kind which I find to be short sighted Madam Chair.  So, I was asking if the Hon. Minister can reduce the percentage.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  Maybe I am missing something, Clause 11 seeks to remove any ambiguity to the extent that mining royalties shall remain deductible for tax purposes in line with the principle already specified in Section 15 of the Income Tax Act.  Hence the treatment of mining royalties as a tax shall not result in any prejudice to taxpayers.  This is to remove any ambiguity that perhaps taxpayers will prejudice. 

         HON. TOGAREPI: I also want that clarification because she was talking about the kind part of it, what is it that she is raising.  What is the kind, is it the mineral paid to Government?  

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  She should explain, it is not there. 

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  With your indulgence Hon. Chair, I think she misplaced it with the other Clause which is ahead. I think the idea of repealing Section 15 (2) (f) (3) of the Income Act is a welcome development in terms of trying to ensure that royalties are not deductible as allowable deduction for tax purposes but it aligns well with what is obtaining with other minerals. 

         Clause 11 put and agreed to.

         On Clause 12:

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  The insertion of Section 16 (t) to the Income Tax Act to add to the list of prohibited deductions.  I am not understanding the logic that is behind it because it talks about royalties to say any royalty payments for the use or right use of literary music, drama et cetera is no longer allowed as a deduction but I am saying the fundamental principle of allowing something as a deduction is that expense incurred in the process of doing business.  So why should we then add it to the list of prohibit deductions under the circumstances.  I am not getting the general logic behind it. 

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  This Clause 12 Madam Chair, seeks to limit the practicability of rental expenditure against taxable income.  This is in cases where such persons fail to declare the owners and rental expense thereof.  This is designed in order to enhance tax administration and this is in line with the proposal on paragraph 600 of the 2025 National Budget whereby there is a change of the principal purpose of residential house to business purposes.  I thank you.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  Thank you Madam Chair.  My issue was not on the proposal to insert 16 (u) to the Income Tax Act, that is not my proposal as you have responded.  My proposal focuses on 16 (t), the intention to insert 16 (t) which talks about the prohibition of claiming royalties as an allowable deduction or putting the claiming of royalty payments as a prohibited deduction.  What I was trying to say is this expense incurred in the process of doing business or generating revenue.  That is the fundamental principle according to Section 15. 

         I was saying now that it suites that tests, why should we then include it on 16 (t) as a prohibited deduction.  That is my point of clarification.  It has nothing to do with rental income which is on 16 (u).

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Madam Chair, I was consulting because also something bothered me but has been clarified.  What is happening here is like this, in this paragraph we are trying to deal with opaqueness of deductible expenses and also their excessiveness because once someone is using their house for business purposes change it from residential for business purposes, we feel that there is some opaqueness in declaring these expenses honestly.  That is why we want to limit the deductibility of these expenses to one and half percent of revenue to deal with the opaqueness.  It is a measure because we believe that otherwise people can claim anything as expenses and never have to pay taxes ever. That is the mischief we are trying to cure.  I thank you.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  Let me take the Hon. Minister to Clause 12. The first paragraph, with effect from the year of assessment beginning the of 1st January, 2025, Section 16, cases which no deduction shall be made of the Income Tax Act Chapter 2006 is amended by the insertion of the following paragraph after paragraph s  which means Section 25 ends on paragraph s.  We are now inserting a new paragraph and the first paragraph is 16 (t).  It says any royalty payment for the use or the right to use any literally, dramatic, musical, artistic, scientific, or other work whatsoever, including cinematography films or recordings in which any corporate subsists or for the use of patented articles trademark design or model plan sacred formula, process where  deduction is claimed by tax payer in favour of the company of which the taxpayer is an associated enterprise or where the company is a foreign company.  This is what I am talking about Hon. Minister.  I am asking therefore to say people who are in this business used to get this as a deduction because it is incurred in the process and these patents are paid in the process of making generated revenue.

         Why do we then bring this to a point where we say it is no longer allowed as a deduction to section 16?   

         HON. MUSHORIWA:  I was following the response from the Hon. Minister. Judging from his response, I do not see the merit of that subsection, that (t).  I think that it needs to be removed or deleted because the mischief that the Minister seeks to cure is not being fully explained.  The Minister fully explains the question of the (u) part.  I think on the (t), the explanation is a little bit hazy.  I think that this paragraph in my view needs to be removed. 

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Paragraph (t), all it does is to limit the extent of these deductible expenses to one and half percent of the company’s turn-over.  That is where this is headed.  So, we are putting a cap because we are concerned that opaqueness may result in inflected expenses being claimed.  So, we are limiting that so that these businesses can pay tax rather than avoid tax by claiming exorbitant deductible expenses. That is what we are trying to do.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  I thought this was covered by the issue of transfer pricing regulations.  Is it not covered by transport pricing regulations because of the association of these entities?  How do you see that? I am failing to understand why it is not being allowed as a deduction.  Where is your opaqueness and why we are limiting it yet it is incurred in the process of generating income by this business? 

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Thank you. We are saying that the level of expenses can be your opaque and can be abused.  Most of all they can be excessive, resulting in these businesses paying no tax at all because they can declare losses by inflating their expenses.  That is the issue. So, it is not a transfer pricing issue where you transfer profits from one entry to another as such but it is about abuse of the provision of deductibility of expenses.

         Clause 12 put and agreed to.

         On Clause 13:

         HON. BAJILA:  This clause speaks to penalties for non-compliance with tax payments.  My simple suggestion or proposal is that the term of imprisonment proposed there be increased from 12 to18 months for those who do not comply with the Commissioner General’s tax notices.  Let us increase it from 12 months to 18 months.

         HON. MUSHORIWA:  I wanted to just seek clarification before I put my contribution from the Minister.  On Sub-clause 3 where it says ‘the Commissioner General having served upon a natural legal person, any notice of civil penalty under subsection 2, shall serve a closure notice…’  Are these being done concurrently or there is a period between these two which is the notice of civil penalty and the closure notice?  If I could get clarification before my contribution.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  Maybe you can allow me further debate.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  Clause 13 seeks to insert Section 25 (c) of the Income Tax Act. My issue is that it empowers the Zimbabwe Revenue Authority to issue a closure notice to a taxpayer who fails to pay a civil penalty for not more than 30 days. What this literally means is, if a taxpayer defies or fails to pay the penalty served at the end of the 30-day period - I think the time is too small in light of the real business challenges that we face under normal circumstances.

Secondly,  the issue of closure, I do not think that it is sustainable. This is because Zimbabwe as a country - we also are in debt to the tune of USD 21.2 billion. With due respect, Madam Speaker, no one closed Zimbabwe and NRZ. The international creditors did not come to close Zimbabwe. They are allowing us to pay token payments as long as there is commitment.

I was just saying, can we apply the same to our businesses which are operating under very tough circumstances in this country to say that this is our cash cow, let us not be too hard on them. Yes, we need money but the money can only come from them. My suggestion Hon. Chair is that let us remove the 30-day period to maybe 60 days, to give this business a chance to correct itself or to comply.

The 30-day period is too small in business. There are cycles in business, booms, and slumps in the country and it also happens to business. There comes a time when you are down and so forth. I think that with a 60-day period, that would allow a business to be fine.      HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: Thank you Hon. Chair. Within that 30 days, after being issued with a notice to pay and then you do not, thirty days is a lot of time for you to write to ZIMRA, to respond to ZIMRA perhaps to explain extenuating circumstances if you have any. As I said, ZIMRA is able to issue garnishee orders of accounts and companies do come forward to argue their case to negotiate and even appeal. We already have that provision and are not taking away the appeals process that is still in place.  I think 30 days is fair and there is enough time to respond to ZIMRA to explain any extenuating circumstances or seek some reprieve or negotiate.

Coming to the issue of the length of imprisonment, imprisonment is only imposed here if someone ignores the closure notice which will then constitutes an offence. I would feel comfortable with 12 or 18 months.  I think the message will be sent if you have a normal business and you end up in this situation and you go to some of our very tough prisons for 12 months.  I think the message will be strong enough.

         HON. TOGAREPI:  Minister, we are too soft.  I think the proposals by the Hon. Member for 18 months will send the right message on how serious we are in making people comply.  I do not know the wise counsel that you got that says 12 months but in other nations if you do not pay tax, it is a serious offence.  You do not even sleep but here we try to massage our people, I do not know why.  Where we want tax we come to some very good percentages; where they decide not to pay tax, we want to be lenient with them and so forth.  I think we should come to a point that we study other nations.

         In UK or European countries if a footballer does not pay tax, he goes to jail and here we have people who are not paying tax.  The reason why we are not funding Government business adequately – the proposal for me I do not know unless it has some implications in the law; if not, why not taking it to 18 months?  People must really feel that the Minister is now very serious. 

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: I think it is important to understand that the Commissioner General does not have the power to set the standard scale of fines.  They just follow to say what is the highest level for misconduct according to the standard scale of 5?  I am sure level 14 is the highest level of misconduct according to the standard scale of 5 and is consistent with the position of law in the country.  I suggest that it remains like that. 

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: We agree. Hon. Togarepi with regards to the 12 versus 18 months – this is the first time we have spoken in terms of imposing a prison sentence for not complying with tax provision and tax demands.  So, we said let us do 12 months then we watch the space. Let us see how tax payers respond to it. If it is too soft, we will find out soon enough and we will be happy to increase.

Clause 13 put and agreed to.

On Clause 14:

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: This clause seeks to insert Section 25 to the Income Tax Act which actually deems the income tax payable by some selected business areas who do not comply by registering under the income tax bracket.

I am looking at the deeming income tax payments.  If you are a spare parts dealer and you did not register for income tax, you are supposed to pay ZiG9000 per quarter or year.  It is not clear from the legislation.  If it is per quarter, then it means the spare part dealer will pay 9000 and the car dealer 14000, grocery and kitchen – 9 000; lodge USD5 000.  It is easy to say out these things but to collect the money is not easy. 

Let me give you an example of groceries and kitchen dealers – these are the tuck-shops that we see down town in Harare.  If you look at goods inside the shop, they can be easily be fitted into a T35 truck and someone vanishes.  When you come and say just because he did not comply, kindly pay 9 000, I do not think it will work.

It is better to collect something than not at all. Can we at least reduce these deeming figures?  I know someone can argue and say if you do not want them to be reduced then register for income tax – it is better to collect something than to charge a whooping 15 000.  A car dealer is just renting a space.  They can easily take those cars away.  At least they should pay something to benefit the fiscus.  I can bet with my last dollar, if you are not careful it can look like the wealth tax that we legislate here but there is no collection on the ground.  Let us continue with the presumptive tax regime but let us make the figures reasonable.  That is the first step to formalisation. Let us make them reasonable for them to pay.  As time goes on, we include them in the main income tax issues.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  There is a proposal that we should revert to the presumptive tax regime.  That has not saved us so far.  That is why I came before this House during the mid-term budget debate review, that we lower the rates because having high presumptive rates does not result in high revenue collection.  We are going this route with the numbers that he was referring to, they are not really revenue raising numbers as such.  The semantic import is one of forcing compliance to make sure they register for tax or else face the wrath of a higher punitive quarterly payments.  He is right that sometimes-enforcing tax collection is not easy, it is never easy but we have to press on to make sure that this emerging sector complies because the current regime of presumptive taxes is not working as well.  We feel that we have to strengthen this using this kind of approach.

HON. ENG. MHANGWA:  The Hon. Minister mentioned that the higher the presumptive tax, the more difficult it was.  Is it not more difficult with these higher figures?

HON. DR. MUTODI: On a point of order, the Minister did not say that. You are….

HON. ENG. MHANGWA:  May you allow the….

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (HON. MAUNGANIDZE):  Hon. Mutodi, you wait to be recognised by the Chairman.  You can proceed. What is your point of order?

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  These numbers in this paragraph are meant to force compliance.  That is really the semantic import.  The point I was making was that we debated extensively in this House that having higher presumptive tax numbers hoping to collect for purposes of revenue raising and not to force compliance.  For purposes of raising revenue does not always work – that is how we agreed that we should reduce the presumptive taxes.  Again, we will take a look and analyse to see if that strategy is working better or not.  It is different from what we are proposing here.  Here we are saying look, let us just force compliance.  What we are talking about are not small companies but very profitable but informal companies and they should register for tax payment.  Let us not leave anyone behind, let us have a much stronger culture of paying taxes.  We all cry about informalisation but when we try to formalise, there is a bit of a problem.  Lets us have a go of this and then we can assess and come back to see if we can fine tune.  I thank you.

Clause 14 put and agreed to.

On Clause 15:

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you Madam Chairperson.  If you look at Clause 15, it talks about non-resident shareholders tax.  Those shareholders who are into business but who are abroad, who are doing business in Zimbabwe. I would like to read sub-section (2), the proposal.  It says for the purpose of this section 15 (2), any amount paid outside Zimbabwe by a local branch or subsidiary of a local company in excess to the amount allowable as a deduction in terms of Section 16 (i) (q) (r) and (t) shall be deemed to be payment of a dividend upon which non-resident tax is charged.  When we say for the purpose of this section any amount paid outside Zimbabwe by a local branch subsidiary or foreign company in excess of the amount allowable as a deduction in terms of section 16 (i), to me, there is a small contradiction because when you say allowable as a deduction in terms of section 16, it talks of prohibited deduction.  I do not know maybe I am misunderstanding; learning can take place.  If you go to the Income Tax Act, Section 16 talks about prohibited deductions but this statement is saying in excess of the amount allowable as a deduction in terms of Section 16.  I need guidance. I thank you.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): I thank you. I think this is a very good clause actually to deal with illicit financial flaws where foreign residents shareholders, pilfer out resources from companies and then they avoid paying taxes locally.  He was saying that there is a certain threshold that is allowable and then we find that in this situation the entity has gone beyond the allowable limit.  I am saying that the extra bid really shall be deemed to be a dividend upon which then tax is chargeable.  That is what we are doing.  We are trying to deal with illicit financial flaws and I think anything in that direction is a good thing. I thank you.

HON. TONGOGARA: I do not think Hon. Madzivanyika is talking about the intention of that section. He is saying section 16 is talking about prohibited but we are now referring it as allowable. That section talks about treating section 16 as allowable yet section 16 is talking about prohibited. The intention of that clause is fine.

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: It has both.

HON. TONGOGARA: It has both. There is section 16.

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: Allowable and not allowable.

HON. TONGOGARA: So maybe the title of section 16 said prohibited deduction.

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: This section referred to has both allowable and not allowable, so I think that clause stands as stated, thank you.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Can you, with your indulgence, allow me to go to section 16 of the Income Tax Act.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (HON MAUNGANIDZE): Hon. Madzivanyika, all the Hon. Members have got the Bill, there is no need for you to put it out. You can go straight to your point, you can explain.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: You may realise that I am actually contributing better, to correct the law or any writing that could have been wrong. I might be wrong and this is how we learn and proceed to make the best of the law of this country. Maybe you can allow the Hon. Minister to consult his colleagues so that it becomes very clear to all of us so that we understand where we are coming from and going.

         HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Hon. Chair, I seek permission to defer Clause 15. There is some legal research taking place, a small hitch that we are trying to sort out, I thank you.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON: The permission has been granted.

         On Clause 16:

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: The reservations of Clause 15 are exactly the same on Clause 16. The only difference is that now it talks about residence shareholders tax. So the issue is the same and the Hon. Minister can move to defer it again.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENTPROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): I agree with that. Let us again, defer Clause 16 because the issue is about clarification on that Clause 16, 1 (q), (r ), (o), (t).

         Clause 16 deferred.

         Clauses 17 and 18 put and agreed to.

         On Clause 19:

         HON. MUSHORIWA: I think that this one is a very bad clause for several reasons.  The first important thing is how you define credit in a bank.  You surely are not construing credit if you just mean an overdraft or a loan per se but credit from a bank can be an irrevocable letter of credit, it can be a bank guarantee and the other stuff.

         Now, for us to then come up with this clause to say that a financial institution cannot do a facility of USD 20,000 without proof that the company on an entity has a valid clearance certificate, I think it does not make sense.  More-so, given the fact that you may then find out that a company can be set up and, in the process, you want to import something and then you are asked to come up with a bank guarantee, you use your properties as security.  For this to be pushed over it is wrong.

         Secondly, banks are under the central bank and one of the key principles of the RBZ and also the financial intelligence unit is the ‘know your client’, that policy guides the operations of the bank.  I am not so sure whether when we say that we are now giving the commissioner those powers literally to supervise or superintend banks in respect of the banks having to avail the list of those clients that have got facilities of above USD 20,000.  In as much as we want tax compliance, in my view, this clause needs to be relooked and reworked so that it would be progressive.  I believe that USD 20,000, it is very possible that you can get a facility and banks can get the facility.  Remember one of the key principles in getting a facility in a bank is not only the ability to pay but the bank also looks even in terms of the security that has been guaranteed.

         So, an entity without even trading but with sufficient liquidity may get a facility for getting into business.  So, this one Hon. Chair is a bit tricky and problematic.  I am not so sure where the role of the RBZ is coming in because if you read it, it starts with the definition of the RBZ. You then look at the powers that are being given to the commissioners, it then appears as if the commissioners can exert pressure over the RBZ whereas in a normal set-up, you want to make sure that your central bank still has within its mandate to have the directive to superintend and give directions to the financial institutions. So, Hon. Minister, we may need to relook into this clause.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA: If you look at Clause 19, it intends to insert a new section which is section 60 B to the Income Tax Act.  However, if you look at the first paragraph of that proposed section 60B, it says certain tax debtors not to access credit but then if you look at that paragraph there is no definition of tax debtors who are there.  There is a definition of a person who is not mentioned in that clause.  I thought the definition that was required was the definition of the tax debtors who are not supposed to get credit.

         Hon. Chair, let us understand that in the banking sector; the desire to get tax must not supersede the performance of other businesses especially the business to do with financial intermediation.  It is a common cause that the core business of banks is to lend so that they can get a profit from the interest spread.  Once we say any lending above 20 000 is not allowed without tax clearance, I think it even stalls productivity, it stalls general business, it is discriminatory, especially to the SMEs.  I think can we just let this go so that we allow banks to function normally without causing this administrative haddock which will not reap any rewards at the end of the day.  I thank you.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): I thank the Members for their contribution.  This clause here does not seek to regulate banks and take over the role of the Central Bank.  It seeks to regulate taxpayers but leverages the banking sector and the need for banking services.

         We are saying if you have a substantial loan and by substantial here, we have said it is USD 20,000 which is a threshold, then you must show that you have complied with income tax registration before you can access that loan.  It is not a Monetary Policy or bank supervision issue.  It is an issue of supervising the income taxpayers.  It is that simple. 

         We are saying that if you going to enjoy banking services as well, please pay your taxes.  We are trying to expand the base and make sure everybody complies.  We want to use every opportunity or every lever we have at our disposal to make sure that there is compliance.  So, this is about registration compliance. I thank you.

         HON. MUSHORIWA: But Hon. Minister if it was what you said why would we have the definition of the RBZ?  You and I know very well that the RBZ will not have a client that they would do a transaction unless it is Government business that the RBZ is handling.  The mere fact that you have the RBZ there is a red flag.

         In any event, Hon. Minister if the intention is to do with tax compliance why not just be specific and simply say that every company trustee or board corporate, bank should ensure that they have tax clearance certificates rather than just have a situation where you want to say 20,000?  Just put and simply say banks, every company that you have should have a tax clearance but otherwise how this clause, I do not think it explains the issues that we are raising.  The moment we start with the definition of the RBZ I think the whole clause went astray.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  Thank you very much but if you leave out the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe (RBZ) in your definition of your financial institution, actually, you will be accused of having an incomplete list. You start with the apex institution, the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe and then any banking institution, Asset Managers, Building Societies, Collection Investment Schemes – that is a full definition, comprehensive definition.  It is just a definition that is all, there are no red flags.  We are doing this for completeness so that it is clear what a financial institution is.

         Now, reference to USD20 000.00, this is for the avoidance of doubt.  We want to make sure that we are clear that anything of USD20 000.00 and above, there must be proof of registration of income tax, this is just to be clear.  If it is a tax clearance, it is neither here nor there, someone will say, Oh I am having trouble with this ZIMRA whatever, I cannot get tax clearance but they told me they would give it to me.  Do not worry about it.  But this one is clear because it is a pre-condition.  It says that before you access the loan, there must be proof of registration.  It is almost an auditable requirement, there is an audit trail on it. 

         HON. MUSHORIWA:  There is something that the Hon. Minister did not answer.  I was saying Hon. Minister, if you do your definitions as you are saying, go to Number 2 which then says, no financial institution.  When you say, no financial institution because you have already made a definition of financial institution including the RBZ, it means it is also subjected to Clause 2, which does not make banking sense.

         Then tied to that Hon. Minister, I do not think you could then just simply say a loan of USD20 000.00.  Probably, if it is a question of tax clearance and tax adherence, it should also speak to both sides. If you say USD20 000.00 loans then also USD20 000.00 deposits so much amount of money because what we are interested in is tax returns. 

Otherwise, this whole thing about the banks, in terms of their lending should be guided by the RBZ and the RBZ should just be empowered to say, you do a, b, c, d, that is all.  This is why I am saying that this clause in reality is not a proper clause to be included.

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Thank you.  The RBZ cannot enforce income tax registration.  This is an issue for tax authorities which is the Ministry of Finance, Economic Development and Investment Promotion acting through ZIMRA to delist.  It is not a Monetary Policy issue; it is a fiscal policy issue.  So it is correct to put it this way.

The banking system is merely being used as a lever to enforce registration of income tax.  I do not know where the prejudice is coming from because maybe there is an implication that there is prejudice from Hon. Mushoriwa.  Then also monetary includes deposits - no, no, no, we are very clear.  The leverage is on loans and not other deposits or financial transactions between entities and their banks. 

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  Thank you.  I would like to know the why of the Hon. Minister in terms of the issue of a loan.  When one receives a loan, what is the effect of taxation, that is where I want you to narrow down so that we understand the rationale behind the denial of someone to get a loan without a tax clearance?  What is important about this loan?  Is it taxable?  At what rate? 

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Thank you.  The loan is not taxable.  The reference to USD20 000 is merely to reference the significance of the client.  If the client is able to borrow above USD20 000.00 then this is a tax significant client, right?  So that is only what we are trying to signal here.  We could go higher or lower but USD20 000.00 is what we came up with when we did our research through the banking sector in terms of size of loans.  This is just signalling a significant.

It is not a taxable amount.  Why would we tax it?  You are getting a loan from the bank and you get taxed, that never happens.  Thank you very much.

Clause 18 put and agreed to.

Clauses 19 to 22 put and agreed to.

On Clause 23:

HON. MUSHORIWA:  I need the Hon. Minister to explain to me the definition of mortgage finance that you have put there which you say means the provision of loans for the acquisition of immovable property for residential purposes.  Why are we excluding the acquisition of immovable properties which are non-residential?  Could there be a reason, or what is the mischief there that we are trying to tackle by coming up with that definition?

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE):  Thank you very much.  I think this is quite clear.  The reference to or rather, the definition has been restricted to mortgage finance pertaining to acquisition of immovable property for residential purposes. We have limited it to that and that what, in a sense, would then be tax-deductible as opposed to commercial banking activities that the bank may indulge in.  I am just thinking what this could be but it is covered by mortgage finance which is tax-deductible or has lower taxes than commercial banking.  I thank you.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Sorry, I am actually thinking.  I do not know whether the Hon. Minister understood my query.  My query is, let us assume a building society gives mortgage finance to an entity or a corporate entity which then wants to build, for instance some buildings.  Are you then saying that because mortgage financing is not doing residential, so this one has to be treated differently, or mortgage financing is mortgage financing whether you are doing residential or you are doing buildings for commercial or for other services which are not residential?

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Thank you very much.  In this definition, we have limited it to residential, we have been very clear.  I think if the Hon. Member then wants it expanded, they should request that but for now, we have limited it to residential purposes only.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  I think the intent of clarifying this exemption was to ensure that activities by the building societies which are not mortgage finance are supposed to be taxed.  I am sure it is very clear from that position – that is the intention of the Hon. Minister I think from that position.  He is exempting only that which relates to mortgage financing. 

I think Hon. Mushoriwa’s point was to say, to limit mortgage financing - full stop, than to say residential because mortgage finance is mortgage finance, it is all exempted.  I think that was the idea to avoid those gaps which can be exploited by some in the future.  I think it is a very valid point. 

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Then I would like to hear the exact proposals of how the two Hon. Members wish we reword that section of paragraph 23. If they could assist us with some rewording, let me hear it out. Thank you.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  I would wish to take the Hon. Minister to Clause 23 (c), second paragraph, which says, in this subparagraph, mortgage finance means the provisions of loans for the acquisition of immovable property. I wanted to delete for residential purposes and to just remain as in this subparagraph, mortgage finance means the provision of loans for the acquisition of immovable property, which loans are secured by collateral of that immovable property.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Madam Chair, that is in order. I concur.

Amendment to Clause 5 put and agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, put and agreed to.

Clause 24 put and agreed to.

On Clause 25:

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Thank you Chair. I am probably not understanding this clause, especially under 37, Schedule, under the mining royalties where we are saying concentrate 85% and matte 90%. I just need some clarification Minister. I am a bit lost because it says, rest of royalties for specific minerals, bearing all minerals shall be calculated using the following criteria: concentrate, you are saying 85% and matte 90%. I just need some clarification there.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  Madam Chair, my issue relates to the issue of the base of calculating royalties. In line with Schedule 37 of the Income Tax Act, my issue is particularly on the issue of gold, which says that the base of determining royalties is the gross fair market value as determined by Fidelity Refinery. My worry Chair is that we are aware as MPs that when the price of gold changes on the international market, we are aware of the correct price per ounce. Why should we delegate this authority to Fidelity Gold Refinery to determine what they call the gross fair market value? Can we not just use the market price prevailing from the international market?  That is my suggestion and also on diamond, where MMCZ is the one which is entrusted to do that. Thank you.

  THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE:  Thank you Madam Chair. Let me refer to Schedule 37 pertaining to mining royalties under that paragraph. You are saying that the royalty for PGMs, if the product is concentrate, the reference price will be 85% of the international price found on the London Metals Exchange but when you improve on the level of beneficiation, from concentrate to matte which is high level beneficiation, that price for matte is closer to the international price. Here we say it is 90% of the international price. That is why there is a difference in those prices for the concentrate and for the matte.

For gold, the Gold Bullion price is the global reference price but Fidelity does refining to the extent of 96% or lower of gold in terms of purity. That is why we are referencing the Fidelity Gold Refinery determined price because it is not quite the pure London Bullion quality in terms of purity. So, the price will be determined locally by Fidelity. I do not see any difficulty with this. We have always done it this way but we always seek to make sure that whatever price Fidelity is using is as close to the Gold Bullion price obtaining in the London Bullion Market as possible.

HON. MUSHORIWA:  Hon. Minister, I want to refer you to page 21 on the collection of mining royalties. I need to understand why you wanted to say with effect from 1^st January 2010. Why should we backdate it to 2010?  If you check on the next page, the (a) part does not mean anything or probably there is something that is missing, whereas if you look at (b), it makes reference to the Minerals Marketing Cooperation. I am not sure of the (a) part. Then the (c) part as well where you say in respect of any other minerals not elsewhere specified, the miner or producer, is that in order Hon. Minister? Do you think you could then put the onus and say that the miner is the agent on behalf of the Commissioner? I am not sure whether that will work in the real world because miners by nature or producers may probably do things for themselves.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  I wish to take the Minister to subparagraph 7 (1) (a)…

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (HON. T. ZHOU):  I think we need to wait for him to return so that he is not left behind.

Cellphone rings.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Hon. Members, can you put your phones on silence?

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): Thank you very much. A query was raised on the date I also had to double check on that one. 2010 was the first time that we introduced royalties into the Income Tax Act, so we were just making sure that we go back and reference the point or date of introduction so that it will be clear. On (a), I do not see where the difficulty is because, this is pertaining to a situation I use gold loan or where part of the royalty pledged towards that loan for example, that is what he is trying to cover where there is partial pledge of the royalty. On (c) on the reference to the minimal producer, we have seen that these words tend to be interchangeable and we are just trying to cover all possibilities in terms of the originator of the producer or the miner. That is what we are trying to do. I hope I covered the generality of those queries.

HON. MUROMBEDZI: Thank you very much Madam Speaker, this Clause 25 brings back my query on the royalties to be paid in kind which I was querying to the Hon. Minister. The small scale miners would be able to do that. I still think this is a burdensome requirement for our small scale miners and considering they are the backbone of our mining sector. Also, I wanted to seek clarity from the Hon. Minister if ZIMRA will be able to handle these gold, diamond, platinum, palladium, lithium as they are being mandated by this law to be collecting 50 % in kind since we already have Fidelity, MMCZ for diamonds and then we want to have ZIMRA collecting these things also, we need clarity Hon. Minister on that.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you Madam Chair. I am a bit concerned about the agency who are designated by the ZIMRA to deduct royalties on behalf of ZIMRA. My worry is emanating from subsection 7 (1) from paragraphs a, b and c. You will find that on paragraph 7 (1) (a) in respect of precious minerals, the one who is allowed by ZIMRA to become an agent is that person who owns the rights or who is authorised to export, so is there no risk of other valuation? How are you going to make sure that the best minerals which are not gold which have been exported reflect the true value when you allow someone to become an agent on deductibility of royalties? Is not this the leakage that will be talking about in the mining sector? I want to be schooled on this one. Same applies to (b) gold in respect of MMCZ, it can designate also the exporter to do so, paragraph (c) in respect of other minerals, the miner himself or the producer himself is entitled to become an agent for ZIMRA, is this sustainable when we are talking about illicit leakage of our minerals?

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: In response to the Hon. Member, ZIMRA is already mandated and empowered to collect royalties. So, whether they receive  these royalties in cash or in kind is neither here nor there, they are already empowered. From this occasion, we are saying that 50% should be received in kind, the reason being that we have used this strategy to also build our reserves and be able to support our domestic currency in ZiG. It is a very important measure, it goes beyond mere collection of royalties but is a very important policy measure.

On the issue of agents in the possibility of deviating from what they are mandated to do or even promoting illicit flaws, these things do happen and sometimes it is difficult to prevent them completely but this is mainly really to increase ZIMRA capacity to collect. You can imagine a situation where something is being exported or whatever through any of these agencies who have been allowed to do so. We want to make sure that ZIMRA then have to say if we allow you to collect on our behalf we will track it and make sure that it is properly audited but will allow you to collect it, please give it to us in kind. I do not think there is anything wrong there. What we need to do as Hon. Madzivanyika said, let us guard against illicit financial flaws and should then start to suspect that if they are to happen, we will certainly clamp down on it and reverse this kind of provision.

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: Thank you. Yes, ZIMRA has mandated many people to act as agencies but I think they are credible agents that we say under no circumstances, it will be easy to trace that this much was sold in terms of our minerals and this was not. I am worried Hon. Minister, can we then revert to ZIMRA itself to do that work because there is that high risk of collusion? If we allow for example the last subsection which talks about any minerals which are not specified, that miner or producer can collect on behalf of ZIMRA. I do not think it will be sustainable. There is no way, there are no checks and balances how exactly was sold. Can you explain to me how much the issue of checks and balances, how much exactly would have been sold, would have arrived? That way I think I will agree with you.

 HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: I think that that kind of detail is going into the realm of administrative work. ZIMRA knows what to do, they know how to select agents and criteria, they try to look for credible agents. They do their due diligence. I think Hon. Madzivanyika would appreciate that is what they do. Some of the details therefore is asking for those administrative issues. We expect ZIMRA to do the right thing. Choose credible agents, do proper diligence and make sure there are no illicit flaws and collect those royalties so that we can build our reserves and also revenues. I thank you.

Clause 25 put and agreed to.

On Clause 26:

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: I wish to underscore that this is a very welcome move, the issue of reducing the withholding tax on marketable securities. I think it is a very important move but then I wish to implore the Minister to include the issue of the vesting period so that it becomes complete, the six months vesting period is still applicable because it is not explicitly included in that statement.  Can it also include that so that it becomes water-tightened, it becomes conclusive for long term investors? 

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): We are not ready to include the vesting period issue. I think let us try to understand the impact of this reduction in the marketable for securities tax, which is meant to stimulate and bring back interest in our capital markets. After all this is where the bulk of our pension funds are invested.  Let us go with this for now and I will be happy to consider the vesting period issue in due course, certainly let us look into it during the mid-term period next year. 

HON. MADZIVANYIKA: I think we need to understand the role of the capital market, capital market unlike a money market, you may have to make a decision on long term investments which are probably more than the vesting period of six months as given under the circumstances.  The six months period offers us opportunity for speculation - speculative investment, we do not want that one, we want stability in the area. Can we allow Hon. Minister, for stability, those six months then we rate it at the mid-term budget for the benefit of this important capital market which can help this country to general capital.

HON. PROF. M. NCUBE: Hon. Chair, we are not shy when it comes to swift action on speculative bubbles.  The reason why we had done all those measures was to deal with the speculative bubble in our capital markets where we realised that the liquidity effect was beginning to occur, where basically low real interest rates were resulting in the channelling of excess liquid to capital markets.  So, we have been creating a speculative bubble, what is also called asset price inflation.  We know how to act swiftly, I can assure you the Hon. Member that should we feel that then there is need to be strict on this six-month withholding period, we will act with speed.

Clause 26 put and agreed to.

Clause 27 put and agreed to.

On Clause 28:

HON. MUSHORIWA: Can the Minister probably explain the debt, the 1^st January, 2011?   Why are we backdating, is there any particular project that started that time or it is meant to cover something? Maybe if I get the explanation, I will probably be in a position to contribute more.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE) Let me double check on the date. It is clearly a typo error on the date.  It should be 1^st January, 2025. It looks innocuous but it is significant.  Madam Chair, I report now that we are ready to look at Clause 15, we can go back there, I propose so that we clear it all at your pleasure.

THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (HON. T. ZHOU): We will certainly do so when we finalise Clause 28.

Clause 28 put and agreed to.

On Clause 15:

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. M. NCUBE): Madam Speaker, the lawyers have now assisted us and we have found the gremlins.  So, that section that Hon. Madzivanyika referred to under 2 to Section 16 (1) (q),(r), (o), (t) should read: 16 (2 ) (q), (r), (o),(t).  Also what is happening is that section 16 is actually inserted through Clause 12 in this same Bill.  So, we are trying to triangulate in the same Bill.  Let me repeat, it should read 16 (2) (q),(r), (o), (t).  This also applies to Clause 16.  I thank you.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  That is where my issue is Hon. Chair because I am saying does 16 (q), (r) and (t)  refer to allowable deductions or what, according to the framing that you  have given in your amendment.  That was my issue.

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. M NCUBE):  Yes, it pertains to allowable deductions.  In fact, as I have said earlier, it refers to both allowable and unallowable.  Allowable in the sense that there is a threshold, for example that is determined by the debt to equity ratio meaning that if it exceeds a certain threshold of that debt equity ratio then there is an issue and it is no longer allowable and tax becomes liable. That is what it is.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  I think that is where the challenge in interpretation comes.  Maybe I am wrong in interpretation.  If you look at Section 16 it says: circumstances upon which no deduction is allowed.  If you read the first statement it says when the threshold of three as to one is exceeded or is not exceeded it does not follow that it is now allowed.  Everything that is allowed in terms of the Income Tax Act is explicitly said.  That is where my issue was.  When the Act is saying in excess of three as to one capital to debt ratio is exceeded, it does not then follow that anything less is allowed as a reduction because the tax law is express and there is no ambiguity.  So, that assumption to the effect that anything less than three as to one is allowable, I do not think it is correct Hon. Minister.  That is my understanding.

         HON. MUROMBEDZI:  My worry on this clause is the arbitrary tax ration on excess payments.  The clause is not specific on what it is calling excess payments.  It fails to account for genuine costs, for instance if we have investors who might want to pay for technical skills abroad, it is not very clear.  The law should be very clear so that people are not charged other expenses other than being excessive costs.  So, we want the law to be specific on what it is calling excess payments.  I so submit.

         HON. M NCUBE:  If there are allowable expenses such as payments for services abroad then it is allowable.  So, there is no issue there and no ambiguity.  Then to Hon. Madzivanyika, the issue of a threshold in terms of the debt equity ratio- that is legitimate.  You could set that threshold and that is what is says that once it exceeds the three to one ratio then you are in danger zone and tax becomes an issue.  There is nothing wrong but perhaps what is causing misinterpretation is the title which I think gives the impression that anything in there is not allowable.  Once you have a threshold then it speaks to both what is allowable and what is not allowable.

         HON. MADZIVANYIKA:  On a point of privilege Madam Chair.  We had conversed with the Government Chief Whip that at 5am, we should break and go and rest.  We are tired and implore you to adjourn the House.  We will come and finish in the afternoon.  Please feel pity for us.  It is already 5am.

         THE TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON:  Hon. Madzivanyika, you are out of order.  Please take your seat.

Amendment to Clause 15 put and agreed to.

Clause 15, as amended, put and agreed to.

On Clause 16:

         THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. M NCUBE): I make a correction accordingly that a Section that refers to 16 (1), (q), (r), (t) should read 16 (2) (q), (r),(o),(t).  I thank you.

Amendment to Clause 16 put and agreed to.

Clause 16, as amended, put and agreed to.

                  On Clause 29:

         HON. MUSHORIWA: The proposal by the Hon. Minister, what I have a problem with is actually the discretion that the Commissioner is being given. Once we say that a return has to be given to the Commissioner by the 5^th day of the month, then we want to add this proviso which says ‘provided that the Commissioner may, having regard to the circumstances of any case’. I actually think that making a law in such a manner becomes dangerous and can actually be exploited. You then have a situation where Mushoriwa’s takeaway may actually be given free ride.

Let the law be just the law and in any event, ZIMRA has other mechanisms within the ZIMRA Act that the Commissioner may do certain things. So my suggestion is that on page 24, we remove these two provisos: one on the period of the return and the other on the payment. You also go to page 25 and you remove the two provisos, the one again on the period and the other one on the payment. Let us just come up with a law which is uniform for everybody.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE): I concur with Hon. Mushoriwa that we remove the sections that he has referred to ‘provided the Commissioner may, having regard of circumstances and that occurs twice under 12 (g) and twice under 12 (h). Under paragraph 29 and 12 (g) section, if you look under 2 (a), it says ‘provided that the Commissioner may, having regard to circumstances of any case, extend the period within which a liable person is to furnish a return’. Let us expunge that. Moving on to (b), again it says ‘provided that in special circumstances the Commissioner may extend the time for the payment of surcharges without charging interest’. Let us expunge that as well. Over the page under 12 (h), 2 (a) (i), it says again that ‘provided that the Commissioner may have in regard to circumstances in any case, extend the period within which a liable person is to furnish a return’, let us expunge that as well. Then under 12 (h), 2 (a) (ii), it says that ‘provided that in any special circumstance, the Commissioner may extend the time for the payment of surcharges without charging interest’. Let us expunge that as well. I thank you.

Amendments to Clause 29 put and agreed to.

Clause 29, as amended, put and agreed to.

House resumed.

Progress reported.

Committee to resume: Wednesday, 18^th December, 2024.

  On the motion of THE MINISTER OF FINANCE, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INVESTMENT PROMOTION (HON. PROF. M. NCUBE), the House adjourned at Twenty-Two Minutes past Five o’clock a.m.